Wing Chun Kuen Kuit

[kung fu fighter]

Great thread guys!

Crane withstand= spring structure
Snake reel= flow and freedom of movement

[Hendrik]

Once you see the intricate lines of interception and how to combat it, you will not waver fom the centerline. 1cm or......

The inner gate is jum jeung. 3 fok sao in slt aka jum jeung.
Outer tan jeung, but easy to let elbow spread out, compared to keeping it in...jum.

Together tan and jum .

The different is in inch.

[Hendrik]

Great thread guys!

Crane withstand= spring structure
Snake reel= flow and freedom of movement

In term of the momentum layer.

Snake coil trapping joints.
Crane withstand bounce off limbs.


IMHO, with the five layers, we can define WCK in details .

[Hendrik]

We know what WCK is
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBGm15iuNVQ

[k gledhill]

I can see a shared goal in all vt. Its the transmission of how to connect the dots. Some are simply missing dots ....or inventing for lack of them.

[Hendrik]

I can see a shared goal in all vt. Its the transmission of how to connect the dots. Some are simply missing dots ....or inventing for lack of them.

Sure.

Momentum types of an art is the signature of the art. Since martial art is for martial purpose, dealing with momentum is the goal.

Without knowing the momentum types of and art, one can practice the frame drill, the internal development and still not the art because those are the support. Knowing the momentum, frame, and internal development is the only path to develop a holistic art.


Take a look of all my previous posts since day one in this forum. They are all targeting towards the frame style, momentum style, and internal development as I understood. All the details are there.

We can know pretty well what is WCK 1850 today.

[LoneTiger108]

First, there is a description of the WCK momentum method from my lineage note.

Then, there is a sample example with the move in the third section of yik kam slt long set with thier kuen kuit explain.

So, for those who train in yik kam slt know exactly which move which kuen kuit which implement the momentum type...

... The writing is some yik kam kuen kuit and some my lineage note.

Thanks for clearing that up Hendrik.

The kuit you present actually sound like what I have experienced as far as learning methods are concerned, but all in all with totally different lines!

Which made me ask the question in the first place.

I'm actually thinking that what I have learnt is not from my Sifu or Sigung, because it's very classically set out and contains some much older language. Yes, there were personal notes in there too I'm sure, but most was just far too 'traditional' for it to be written in modern times.

I am sure you are right too. Not any one lineage will have everything, and we should try to work together if we want to rediscover what the ancestors have left behind for us all. The thing is, even within my own lineage, there are very few who even know if this stuffs existence. I believe my Sifu was the only student of Lee Shing to learn in this manner. Hence, why he has always been referred to as Lee Shings 'Kung Fu Son'.

[Hendrik]

Thanks for clearing that up Hendrik.

The kuit you present actually sound like what I have experienced as far as learning methods are concerned, but all in all with totally different lines!

Which made me ask the question in the first place.

I'm actually thinking that what I have learnt is not from my Sifu or Sigung, because it's very classically set out and contains some much older language. Yes, there were personal notes in there too I'm sure, but most was just far too 'traditional' for it to be written in modern times.

I am sure you are right too. Not any one lineage will have everything, and we should try to work together if we want to rediscover what the ancestors have left behind for us all. The thing is, even within my own lineage, there are very few who even know if this stuffs existence. I believe my Sifu was the only student of Lee Shing to learn in this manner. Hence, why he has always been referred to as Lee Shings 'Kung Fu Son'.

I have just edited my previous post to further clarify.
My lineage notes also include some other lineage note.

The key is to identify the momentum type , the language are just a described which can be in different way.

This is 2012 no longer 1850 every lineages have evolved.

[k gledhill]

Sure.

Momentum types of an art is the signature of the art. Since martial art is for martial purpose, dealing with momentum is the goal.

Without knowing the momentum types of and art, one can practice the frame drill, the internal development and still not the art because those are the support. Knowing the momentum, frame, and internal development is the only path to develop a holistic art.


Take a look of all my previous posts since day one in this forum. They are all targeting towards the frame style, momentum style, and internal development as I understood. All the details are there.

We can know pretty well what is WCK 1850 today.

Momentum control is key in VT, the more you see clearly the more 1cm can shift under motion.....Knowing how to take advantage is not so obvious, but when you see it , perfection and self-correction take on a endless pursuit.

[Hendrik]

Hope this discussion from all of us make positive contribution to a more clear learning for the wcners.

[LoneTiger108]

Hope this discussion from all of us make positive contribution to a more clear learning for the wcners.

Do they ever?! I would hope so too, but many people who have never met me can not take me seriously! I will predict the same for you Hendrik, as we have been debating this stuff for a few years now!

Funny really, because the people that I have met or trained with HAVE to take me seriously!!

[kung fu fighter]

Hendrik,

In pre 1850's wing chun is the crane and snake power generation always done individually as two separate entity one rapidly after the other? or fused together as one (crane withstand is done simultaneously with snake reeling) to create something that's different that either one done individually?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik,

In pre 1850's wing chun is the crane and snake power generation always done individually as two separate entity one rapidly after the other? or fused together as one (crane withstand is done simultaneously with snake reeling) to create something that's different that either one done individually?

In my understaning, the 1850's

they can do Both since they have the full engine well develop. They can do one arm snake the other arm crane, crane within snake, snake within crane...ect all different sort of things.



as an example

手法蛇行如水袖。 hand method snake slide similar to water sleeve.

example of water sleeve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBKzsJLW9w4


法中暗藏䄂底勁。 within the ( snake )method hidden the under sleeve force. ( under sleeve force is a crane withstand bow power)


in today's example,
just think as in the water sleeve dance clip above, there is always a wrist snap inch power sun punch waiting to be triggled, at any instant the actress snap her long sleeve. that is the fusion of snake and crane with a snake engine.





Today's wooden dummy set is a good evidence of these stuffs.

Today the engine has goes into different directions due to evolution. Some is good at crane spring, some have snake coil remain, some evolve into different mix art such as spm ...ect. one can actually observe this in the lineage slt form. Just make a checking on frame, momentum, and engine or internal development. One can see how the lineage evolve into the present time.

The deal is, if one go extreme, if one has the momentum type but not the engine, it is still WCK. Because it still serve good/ advantage for martial purpose.

However, this type of evolution will not last long and limited , because the body cannot go full range without the engine. But the engine take long time to develop and not easy.

If one has the engine but know not the momentum. Then it is no longer WCK. Because it fight differently.





one other issue arise is the practice of slt.

those in the red boat like yik kam is condition and develop their body like the actress in the water sleeve clip. there is a big different to do slt that way compare to todays' very robotic rigid body way.


also, when they issue the jin, it is not hitting but snapping to shoot out. if force vector can be seen it will look like the sleeve shoot out. that is what issue means.





well, those are past.....
it is always fun to know and enjoy fine art like the Van Goh starry starry night or Beetoven's moon light sonata , but we cant go back .. let the beauty stay there forever. I no longer can do fighting because that violate buddhist precept, but it is ok to study and to know the details of the fine art of the past.

水的波光
劍的影子
只是過往的是過往

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D0ChIdUqaE

[GlennR]

Do they ever?! I would hope so too, but many people who have never met me can not take me seriously! I will predict the same for you Hendrik, as we have been debating this stuff for a few years now!

Your prediction would be correct

Funny really, because the people that I have met or trained with HAVE to take me seriously!!

I assume they are restrained and under threat of torture

[kung fu fighter]

In my understaning, the 1850's

they can do Both since they have the full engine well develop. They can do one arm snake the other arm crane, crane within snake, snake within crane...ect all different sort of things.



as an example

手法蛇行如水袖。 hand method snake slide similar to water sleeve.

example of water sleeve

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBKzsJLW9w4


法中暗藏䄂底勁。 within the ( snake )method hidden the under sleeve force. ( under sleeve force is a crane withstand bow power)


in today's example,
just think as in the water sleeve dance clip above, there is always a wrist snap inch power sun punch waiting to be triggled, at any instant the actress snap her long sleeve. that is the fusion of snake and crane with a snake engine.





Today's wooden dummy set is a good evidence of these stuffs.

Today the engine has goes into different directions due to evolution. Some is good at crane spring, some have snake coil remain, some evolve into different mix art such as spm ...ect. one can actually observe this in the lineage slt form. Just make a checking on frame, momentum, and engine or internal development. One can see how the lineage evolve into the present time.

The deal is, if one go extreme, if one has the momentum type but not the engine, it is still WCK. Because it still serve good/ advantage for martial purpose.

However, this type of evolution will not last long and limited , because the body cannot go full range without the engine. But the engine take long time to develop and not easy.

If one has the engine but know not the momentum. Then it is no longer WCK. Because it fight differently.





one other issue arise is the practice of slt.

those in the red boat like yik kam is condition and develop their body like the actress in the water sleeve clip. there is a big different to do slt that way compare to todays' very robotic rigid body way.


also, when they issue the jin, it is not hitting but snapping to shoot out. if force vector can be seen it will look like the sleeve shoot out. that is what issue means.





well, those are past.....
it is always fun to know and enjoy fine art like the Van Goh starry starry night or Beetoven's moon light sonata , but we cant go back .. let the beauty stay there forever. I no longer can do fighting because that violate buddhist precept, but it is ok to study and to know the details of the fine art of the past.

水的波光
劍的影子
只是過往的是過往

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D0ChIdUqaE

Thanks Hendrik,

That was a very good explaination