History of WCK: Tan Sau Ng

[sanjuro_ronin]

And here is the thing, IF you were to find out tomorrow that this history was all wrong what difference would it make to your ability to use your WC?
None, none whatsoever.
The history of any MA is always fascinating but what a MA is all about is martial effectiveness and not history and while history can give you a better understanding of how a MA came to be ( the motivation behind its development) it doesn't make anyone a better fighter or make the MA a better MA.

[JPinAZ]

agreed, but really this goes without saying. No one here is saying that knowing the history of a MA makes you a better/worse fighter.
While WCK is a fighting art (Martial art), there are many other aspects one can look at besides just the fighting. Things like history, culture, philosophy - each of which can give us an insite as to why things are the way they are or how they came about. If you're not interested in those things much, that's cool too, but that's what this particular thread is for.

So, while I do agree with you, I hope your point has been made and we can move on?
Do you have any comments regarding anything I did say or links I posted? (I did talk about some technical information as well btw since history doesn't seem to be your thing)

[Hendrik]

And here is the thing, IF you were to find out tomorrow that this history was all wrong what difference would it make to your ability to use your WC?
None, none whatsoever.

The history of any MA is always fascinating but what a MA is all about is martial effectiveness and not history and while history can give you a better understanding of how a MA came to be ( the motivation behind its development) it doesn't make anyone a better fighter or make the MA a better MA.

Good question.

my interest in the history of WCK particulary the creation of SLT the long set in the red boat era, prio to the Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets , is to be able to know what type of training and development is in the art and what is the result could be expected.

WCK technology DNA issue is a serious issue because 20 years from today, WCK will be very diversify and evolve in different directions. so, if the technology DNA is not identify. that time will no longer has WCK.


For me, i respect WCK his-story in evey lineges, however, expecting the his-story is not going to align with what the art is. so, it is just a good story in the most time doing no good for the art.

as an example, within my lineage, there are those who believe SLT is a shao lin art and keep practice the SLT such as the one I shows in the utube with the rigid shao lin or hung gar or old hung kuen way. so, what is the consequence? the practice lost the snake reel and crane bow. it end up to be a rigid discrete karate like of art. it simply doesnt work well at all. so, holding on a wrong story is infact could screw up the art.







in fact, lots of things in these his-story doesnt make much sense, when compare with true chinese history and the tcma history for the past 400 years. but that is ok. because every one love to have their story as the best.


For example,
Ng Mui is just a nick name, there is no Shao lin got burn, there is no a group of monks develop WCK in shao lin, the Dna of the WCK sets are providing a different evidence to the Shao lin claim , the big guy in 1850 chinese history with evidence is CLF not WCK. and the list goes on.

also, tan sau cannot be the ulitimate even with the Shao Lin standard, Tan is infact partial. because Tan is Yang type. as all chinese knows the universe is made up of and Ying Yang pair. as I-Ching said, single Yang alone will not grow. So, saying Tan is the ultimate is just revealling the person doesnt understand Chinese philosophy and the art of Shao lin.


so, could we know a clear WCK three sets technological history today?
Sure, that is not that difficult at all observing and comparing DNA of the TCMA.

but that tell nothing on the anti Qing , rebel, and ect. also, the anti Qing, rebel...ect doesnt tell anything about the technology DNA.


one major issue is some one some one always love to link the anti Qing, rebel, red boat opera with the technology DNA. and it fails because anti Qing, rebel, red boat, stories, doesnt tell so where is the art called Siu Lien Tau comes from? it cannot come from the thin air. at least for the past 400 years in the Chinese TCMA history nothing comes from thin air but evolution.

[Eric_H]

Good question.

my interest in the history of WCK particulary the creation of SLT the long set in the red boat era, prio to the Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets , is to be able to know what type of training and development is in the art and what is the result could be expected.

WCK technology DNA issue is a serious issue because 20 years from today, WCK will be very diversify and evolve in different directions. so, if the technology DNA is not identify. that time will no longer has WCK.


For me, i respect WCK his-story in evey lineges, however, expecting the his-story is not going to align with what the art is. so, it is just a good story in the most time doing no good for the art.

as an example, within my lineage, there are those who believe SLT is a shao lin art and keep practice the SLT such as the one I shows in the utube with the rigid shao lin or hung gar or old hung kuen way. so, what is the consequence? the practice lost the snake reel and crane bow. it end up to be a rigid discrete karate like of art. it simply doesnt work well at all. so, holding on a wrong story is infact could screw up the art.







in fact, lots of things in these his-story doesnt make much sense, when compare with true chinese history and the tcma history for the past 400 years. but that is ok. because every one love to have their story as the best.


For example,
Ng Mui is just a nick name, there is no Shao lin got burn, there is no a group of monks develop WCK in shao lin, the Dna of the WCK sets are providing a different evidence to the Shao lin claim , the big guy in 1850 chinese history with evidence is CLF not WCK. and the list goes on.

also, tan sau cannot be the ulitimate even with the Shao Lin standard, Tan is infact partial. because Tan is Yang type. as all chinese knows the universe is made up of and Ying Yang pair. as I-Ching said, single Yang alone will not grow. So, saying Tan is the ultimate is just revealling the person doesnt understand Chinese philosophy and the art of Shao lin.


so, could we know a clear WCK three sets technological history today?
Sure, that is not that difficult at all observing and comparing DNA of the TCMA.

but that tell nothing on the anti Qing , rebel, and ect. also, the anti Qing, rebel...ect doesnt tell anything about the technology DNA.


one major issue is some one some one always love to link the anti Qing, rebel, red boat opera with the technology DNA. and it fails because anti Qing, rebel, red boat, stories, doesnt tell so where is the art called Siu Lien Tau comes from? it cannot come from the thin air. at least for the past 400 years in the Chinese TCMA history nothing comes from thin air but evolution.

What utter and absolute nonsense.

[Wayfaring]

Good question.

my interest in the history of WCK particulary the creation of SLT the long set in the red boat era, prio to the Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets , is to be able to know what type of training and development is in the art and what is the result could be expected.

Good to know your interest. I caught some of that watching your video on Yik Kam SLT.

WCK technology DNA issue is a serious issue because 20 years from today, WCK will be very diversify and evolve in different directions. so, if the technology DNA is not identify. that time will no longer has WCK.

Then it's up to every family / lineage to ensure that what they are teaching is able to be passed down without degrading into nothing.

For me, i respect WCK his-story in evey lineges, however, expecting the his-story is not going to align with what the art is. so, it is just a good story in the most time doing no good for the art.

as an example, within my lineage, there are those who believe SLT is a shao lin art and keep practice the SLT such as the one I shows in the utube with the rigid shao lin or hung gar or old hung kuen way. so, what is the consequence? the practice lost the snake reel and crane bow. it end up to be a rigid discrete karate like of art. it simply doesnt work well at all. so, holding on a wrong story is infact could screw up the art.

well although I might take issue with classifying shao lin arts as all rigid, it sounds like you need to set them straight to preserver your lineage of WCK correctly.

in fact, lots of things in these his-story doesnt make much sense, when compare with true chinese history and the tcma history for the past 400 years. but that is ok. because every one love to have their story as the best.

Historians love their stories too. In case you might think history books are written without an author bias.

For example,
Ng Mui is just a nick name, there is no Shao lin got burn, there is no a group of monks develop WCK in shao lin, the Dna of the WCK sets are providing a different evidence to the Shao lin claim , the big guy in 1850 chinese history with evidence is CLF not WCK. and the list goes on.

Wow - that's quite a story. It's kind of hard to prove nothing existed at a time in the past, but everyone's got some kind of story to tell as you pointed out.

also, tan sau cannot be the ulitimate even with the Shao Lin standard, Tan is infact partial. because Tan is Yang type. as all chinese knows the universe is made up of and Ying Yang pair. as I-Ching said, single Yang alone will not grow. So, saying Tan is the ultimate is just revealling the person doesnt understand Chinese philosophy and the art of Shao lin.

Well, then Tan Sau Ng according to your viewpoint must have been a very imbalanced kind of guy, what with having a name that is all yang.

I kind of don't understand the point, though. The story from HFY oral tradition doesn't say anything about tan sau being the ultimate.

so, could we know a clear WCK three sets technological history today?
Sure, that is not that difficult at all observing and comparing DNA of the TCMA.

but that tell nothing on the anti Qing , rebel, and ect. also, the anti Qing, rebel...ect doesnt tell anything about the technology DNA.

I think you get a little wacky when you start talking about DNA. I know you have your whole line of reasoning what with the DNA subject and the true heritage from snake and crane kung fu. I think that is part of your family oral tradition and if it helps you preserve Yik Kam WCK and the details of it that others in your family miss then that's great for you. It's an interesting perspective. I think the problem gets to be applying it to all other WCK families across the board. They have different stories and ways to preserve the art.

one major issue is some one some one always love to link the anti Qing, rebel, red boat opera with the technology DNA. and it fails because anti Qing, rebel, red boat, stories, doesnt tell so where is the art called Siu Lien Tau comes from? it cannot come from the thin air. at least for the past 400 years in the Chinese TCMA history nothing comes from thin air but evolution.

This is kind of an example of what I was saying in the last paragraph. You're generalizing to an extreme. China has how many billion people living there? Do you think it's possible that some of the authors that wrote books that you own regarding Chinese TCMA history might not have met all of them?

[Wayfaring]

And here is the thing, IF you were to find out tomorrow that this history was all wrong what difference would it make to your ability to use your WC?
None, none whatsoever.

Well, speaking personally it totally messes up my fruit defense.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piWCBOsJr-w

[Hendrik]

Well, then Tan Sau Ng according to your viewpoint must have been a very imbalanced kind of guy, what with having a name that is all yang.

I kind of don't understand the point, though. The story from HFY oral tradition doesn't say anything about tan sau being the ultimate.


I think you get a little wacky when you start talking about DNA. I know you have your whole line of reasoning what with the DNA subject and the true heritage from snake and crane kung fu. I think that is part of your family oral tradition and if it helps you preserve Yik Kam WCK and the details of it that others in your family miss then that's great for you. It's an interesting perspective. I think the problem gets to be applying it to all other WCK families across the board. They have different stories and ways to preserve the art.


This is kind of an example of what I was saying in the last paragraph. You're generalizing to an extreme. China has how many billion people living there? Do you think it's possible that some of the authors that wrote books that you own regarding Chinese TCMA history might not have met all of them?

1. if we leave the lineage out , take things as a true third party reserach, and look at the tcma technology and china history with records. then we can nail lots of things down.

2. Tan Sau Ng, exist and we need to take him as who he is, as it is. Same with the Red Bandana army exist and we need to take them as who they are.


3. China TCMA and history is not that difficult to check out. we might not know to the exact, but the dominant key we can get there without problem.


4. the exist of the snake and crane section in the SLT, in fact has told a lots of major story for WCK. we know across WCK lineages from Chan Wah to Ku lo, to snake crane to YKS. what is the common denominator. and how is the pre 1900 version looks like. so, it is not that dificult to trace into the technology DNA of WCK.


5. Tan Sau Ng is a Shao Lin exist in 1700 according to the history. now, do not everyone get curious why is the core of Siu Lin Tau accross lineages from Chan Wah, YKS, Ku Lo, snake crane, Cho family has a signature from white Crane of Fujian and Emei 12 Zhuang?

So, how is it make sense that Tan Sau Ng, a Shao Lin who probably doing Chan Wu Yi type of Shao lin ( I presume Tan Sau Ng is a real Shao lin as today's Chan Wu Yi) to create a set called Siu Lien Tau, using the White Crane and Emei Technology?

in todays language is like a Microsoft guru creating a software based on Apple operating system which he is not the expert in.


In addition, according to Shao Lin, Tan Sau is Yang plam.

Palm technics always come in pair. which is a Yang Palm and Yin Palm. using the double push palm technology.

The WCK's Tan Sau is based on sealing off philosophy of Emei 12 Zhuang.


So, they really doesnt add up to say Tan Sau Ng is good in Tan Sau and create WCK.

[Lee Chiang Po]

I really don't think in terms of snake and crane or shaolin or any of that stuff. so none of it seems to matter to me.
I think that Ng developed his tan sao system to where he was good at it. Legandary? I don't think the other forms came into being until others decided to train in it. Probably added as time went by. If you think of it, the names of the forms will tell you that. Sil Lim I was told meant, use a bit of imagination. And I did. I guess everyone did because from lineage to lineage you will see that the forms are completely different. The forms I learned do not look like those of Ip or others. It is unique to my own lineage. However, that is only the form, the weapons and basic principals are much the same. I think people like Mr. Hung were the benefactors of the forms. There again, speculation like everything else.
I think that the physics of the human body involved in WC might also be an addition made by the accrobats of the Red Boat troups. I think that is when it moved away from the snake crane aspects.

[Hendrik]

I really don't think in terms of snake and crane or shaolin or any of that stuff. so none of it seems to matter to me.
I think that Ng developed his tan sao system to where he was good at it. Legandary? I don't think the other forms came into being until others decided to train in it. Probably added as time went by. If you think of it, the names of the forms will tell you that. Sil Lim I was told meant, use a bit of imagination. And I did. I guess everyone did because from lineage to lineage you will see that the forms are completely different. The forms I learned do not look like those of Ip or others. It is unique to my own lineage. However, that is only the form, the weapons and basic principals are much the same. I think people like Mr. Hung were the benefactors of the forms. There again, speculation like everything else.
I think that the physics of the human body involved in WC might also be an addition made by the accrobats of the Red Boat troups. I think that is when it moved away from the snake crane aspects.

Jack,

It would be great if you could share your set with youtube.

[kentchang]

The history of any MA is always fascinating. One could find snake and crane in many kung fu and karate schools. The myth of Wing Chun is in this article.

武林史上方詠春與嚴詠春是兩位不同門派的武術大師，方詠春之福建永春白鶴拳是名譽福建省的白鶴 拳種。為何後 人誤傳福建永春白鶴拳與廣東詠春拳有關？其原因有三。其一，福建永春白鶴拳之永春是地方之名， 不是拳種。其 二，方詠春是人名不是拳種。其三，方詠春與嚴詠春，同名不同姓。两人拳種不同。白鶴拳就是白鶴 拳，詠春拳就 是詠春拳。但為何後人又誤傳詠春拳出自福建永春鶴拳？其中因為詠春拳手法有鹤形和蛇形之手法。 但鹤形和蛇形 手法均在中國很多門派都存在，這並不代表詠春拳與白鶴拳同源。以馮京作馬凉的错誤傳說在武林界 中实在举之不 盡，筆者是福建莆田白鶴拳師方洽庄後人。〈福建武林誌〉

In Martial Arts history, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun are two different separate entities of Martial artists. Fong Wing Chun’s Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is part of Fokien Counties White Crane Style type. Why is it then that future generations spread rumors that Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen and Canton’s Wing Chun Kuen have any correlations to one another? There are 3 specific reasons why this is so: Reason number 1, the Weng Chun in Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is a name of a specific place. Not a specific martial arts style type. Reason number 2, Fong Wing Chun is a person’s name, not a specific martial arts style type. And reason number 3, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun, both has the same First name but different last names. Both individuals have different martial arts style types. White Crane Kuen simply is White Crane, and Wing Chun Kuen simply is Wing Chun Kuen. Then why are people in future generations confused over the misconception that Wing Chun Kuen spawned from Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen? Because the inter-reasons indicate that Wing Chun Kuen’s hand tecniques contain those of Crane style and Snake style hand techniques. But Crane Style and Snake style hand techniques are existent in many martial arts forms within China. Therefore, it does not represent that Wing Chun Kuen and White Crane Kuen came from the same origin. There are numerous accounts that exist in the martial arts world such examples of mis-spread rumors of 馮京 miswritten as 馬凉. The author is Fokien 莆田 White Crane Boxer 方洽庄‘s successor’s. <Fokien Martial Arts Columnist>

[Hendrik]

The history of any MA is always fascinating. One could find snake and crane in many kung fu and karate schools. The myth of Wing Chun is in this article.



.............

In my opinion,

to compare one chinese martial art to other one,
one needs to take a look at 手法 hand technics。身功 body kung/ engine 。and 勢法 momentum style/ dynamic strucutre. all three in the same time.
adding with the chinese history and the location of the art. one then can see what is very likely.


the above article is obviously have not going through indepth investigation of the hand technics, body kung, and dynamic structure. not to mention the comparision of Kuen Kuit.





Wing Chun does origin from White Crane of Fujian.

1. the White Crane expert GM Lee Kong has published his article publicly on the evolution of Fujian White Crane.

2. I myself has compared the 1850 SLT kuen kuit with the 1700's White crane of Fujian classical writing. and there is matches.

to be specific, the pre 1800 White crane of Fujian technic ----- Zhao Yang sau and Zhao Yang Shih or the facing sun hand and facing sun momentum, is adapted in WCK.
this facing sun term existed in the Yik Kam 1850 SLT kuen kuit.






here is the description of the facing sun momentum

-------------------------

<白鶴仙師祖傳真法> 中的 <方七娘白鶴拳十五勢>，就載有 : [跌、砍拳…招陽、……]十五個勢法，並注明如何動作及攻防意義之所在。…….這十五個勢應為當時最早見之於拳譜中的勢法，當是當時 所傳教的。

比如十五勢拳譜中所寫： [招 (昭) 陽。白鶴拳法之五：凡拳起手，只要招 (昭)陽，無論他用何勢，可用此勢，大門放過，小門直入。蓋此勢兩手顧鼻面，短牙顧中攔切，戒分 腳退後。]
---------------

brief ranslate to


facing sun momentum is one of the earliest White Crane of fujian momentum style. it is the 5th within the early 15 momentum styles of Fang Chi Nian's white crane teaching.

Zhao Yang. the fifth of the white crane method. what ever momentum comes. one can apply this momentum sytle, let the frontal attack passed and directly attack him side way.





the following clip is a today's intepretation of the facing sun momentum in Wing Chun Kuen. see for yourself what it is.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u63OJRXyq68






So, if one dig deep one will see. it is not a matter of hand shape or hand technics. one needs to look into the hand technics, body engine, and momentum style.

[JPinAZ]

Jeebus Hendrick, what the heck are you even talking about??
And where did you get all this Shaolin and taan sau Ultimate crap from? Boy, when they let you out of the padded room, all he!! breaks loose doesn't it...

[JPinAZ]

I really don't think in terms of snake and crane or shaolin or any of that stuff. so none of it seems to matter to me.

Haha, me neither. WCK is so much beyond this type of thinking IMO.

I think that Ng developed his tan sao system to where he was good at it. Legandary? I don't think the other forms came into being until others decided to train in it. Probably added as time went by. If you think of it, the names of the forms will tell you that. Sil Lim I was told meant, use a bit of imagination. And I did. I guess everyone did because from lineage to lineage you will see that the forms are completely different. The forms I learned do not look like those of Ip or others. It is unique to my own lineage. However, that is only the form, the weapons and basic principals are much the same. I think people like Mr. Hung were the benefactors of the forms. There again, speculation like everything else.

I would really enjoy seeing your forms. have you ever recorded them? I understand though if that is not in your interest.

I think that the physics of the human body involved in WC might also be an addition made by the accrobats of the Red Boat troups.

Interesting. Not sure I would agree 100% as there are lineages that do not trace themselves back through the Red Boat troupes.
HFY does not, yet much of what is taught in HFYWCK is very much based on understanding the physics of the human body. Our Sup Ming Dim (10 bright points) is key, or 'road-map', to learning and understanding how the various body parts can be aligned to achieve strong structure thru proper reference point in space.

I think that is when it moved away from the snake crane aspects.

I agree that WCK was a move away from these things like animal styles. I am sure snake and crane has influence in WCK, but so did many other styles/technologies of the time. In HFY we see eagle and dragon 'flavors' as well, among others. But none of them are the system themselves.

IMO, true understanding of WCK is that it was to move away from those things and focus more on science and physics for understanding how to operate/fight as a human being (as you mentioned), and not an animal - WCK is not an animal style system. So, anyone arguing that it is, is really living in the past by arguing a moot point and is really lost on what WCK truly is.

[Wayfaring]

In Martial Arts history, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun are two different separate entities of Martial artists. Fong Wing Chun’s Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is part of Fokien Counties White Crane Style type. Why is it then that future generations spread rumors that Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen and Canton’s Wing Chun Kuen have any correlations to one another? There are 3 specific reasons why this is so: Reason number 1, the Weng Chun in Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen is a name of a specific place. Not a specific martial arts style type. Reason number 2, Fong Wing Chun is a person’s name, not a specific martial arts style type. And reason number 3, Fong Wing Chun and Yim Wing Chun, both has the same First name but different last names. Both individuals have different martial arts style types. White Crane Kuen simply is White Crane, and Wing Chun Kuen simply is Wing Chun Kuen. Then why are people in future generations confused over the misconception that Wing Chun Kuen spawned from Fokien Weng Chun White Crane Kuen? Because the inter-reasons indicate that Wing Chun Kuen’s hand tecniques contain those of Crane style and Snake style hand techniques. But Crane Style and Snake style hand techniques are existent in many martial arts forms within China. Therefore, it does not represent that Wing Chun Kuen and White Crane Kuen came from the same origin. There are numerous accounts that exist in the martial arts world such examples of mis-spread rumors of 馮京 miswritten as 馬凉. The author is Fokien 莆田 White Crane Boxer 方洽庄‘s successor’s. <Fokien Martial Arts Columnist>

Now this makes infinitely more sense than Hendrik's wildly extrapolated surmisings.

Snake and crane style hand movements are widely dispersed across many martial arts styles originating from China. To name a few - hung gar, lohan, 5 animals, northern longfist. Some of this is reflected in one of WCK's sister arts - weng chun.

As far as Hendrik's suggestions to look "deeper" into body engine and momentum style, and his supporting video using sifu Gary Lam's illustration of basically slipping a punch combined with traditional widespread Chinese 5 element terminology, that exists nowhere but in Hendrik's mind.

You can see similar types of body mechanics to what Hendrik shows in his SLT video where he does one-handed illustrations of flowing movements in sections of SLT - you can see that type of flow in mantis boxing and hung gar.

Gary Lam's illustration of slipping the first attack motion and intercepting the 2nd or 3rd is widely present in western boxing as well as muy thai.

[kentchang]

Originally Posted by Wayfaring
Now this makes infinitely more sense than Hendrik's wildly extrapolated surmisings.

Snake and crane style hand movements are widely dispersed across many martial arts styles originating from China. To name a few - hung gar, lohan, 5 animals, northern longfist. Some of this is reflected in one of WCK's sister arts - weng chun.

As far as Hendrik's suggestions to look "deeper" into body engine and momentum style, and his supporting video using sifu Gary Lam's illustration of basically slipping a punch combined with traditional widespread Chinese 5 element terminology, that exists nowhere but in Hendrik's mind.

You can see similar types of body mechanics to what Hendrik shows in his SLT video where he does one-handed illustrations of flowing movements in sections of SLT - you can see that type of flow in mantis boxing and hung gar.

Gary Lam's illustration of slipping the first attack motion and intercepting the 2nd or 3rd is widely present in western boxing as well as muy thai.

Hendrik almost always stammers when he talks about the history of WCK.