History of WCK: Tan Sau Ng

[kentchang]

Originally Posted by Hendrik
my interest in the history of WCK particulary the creation of SLT the long set in the red boat era, prio to the Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets , is to be able to know what type of training and development is in the art and what is the result could be expected.

To a casual observer, your statement seems to be no big deal. However, it is important try to be objective when listening to someone. "Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets" Did you make an inference from your imagination or did you get this story directly from Yik Kam? As a matter of fact, these three forms of SNT, CK, BJ are all found within many WCK families, including Wong Wah-Bo, Leung Yee-Tai, Dai Dong-Fang of Pow Fa Lien lineage etc. The problem has been fixed to Yik Kam's SLT, but not WCK completely.

In the history of WCK, how many WCK families have quarrels over this Omei chi gung exercises? Almost none! So what's Yik Kam's SLT exactly? No CK, no BJ, just some imcompete WCK techniques mixed with some Omei chi gung exercises. But you ignored this fact: Wong Wah-Bo and many other WCK ancestors got nothing to do with this Omei chi gung exercises, SLT at all.

[Hendrik]

"Wong Wah Boh/ Leung Jan breaking up the one long set to the three sets"

1. It has been confirm in this forum, by the decendent of Leung Jan lineage, on WWB/LJ breaking up a long set to make the three sets.


2. No one needs to agree with me. I am always open to everyone's ideas ; and welcome disagreement with me.

However,

I expect those who has different ideas provide trace able specific details such as I have done. from the snake and crane section, to emei snake engine, to the facing Sun momentum style of White Crane of Fujian.

Opinion without a traceable source such as the article you post above is a personal opinion. there is nothing wrong with that for everyone can have their opinion. however, when it gets into the research of tcma one needs the support traceable evidence.

IE:
1, snake and crane section is traceable in all wck lineage. one also sees Ip Man's and others lineages' signature in the snake section.

2, Zhao Yan ( facing sun momentum style of White Crane of Fujian ) is traceable in Yik Kam kuen kuit, Yik Kam SLT set, WCK woodern dummy set practice, applications such as in sifu Gary Lam's application demo.

3, The five finger tracing taiji technics of Emei 12 Zhuang very specifically, is trace able in Ku Lo Fung Family, YKS, Wong Yin Nim....ect lineages of WCK.


again, one doesnt have to buy what I brought up.


I am seriously waiting for different solution support by evidence in TCMA history to explain the above 3 issues and more.

[Lee Chiang Po]

Jack,

It would be great if you could share your set with youtube.

Hendrik, I don't have a video camera, but if I can come up with something and can manage to get something done I will try to put it on utube for you.

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, I don't have a video camera, but if I can come up with something and can manage to get something done I will try to put it on utube for you.

Jack,

Thanks and appreciate!

It is a meaningful project because this preserve your line of art. And that is important.

[Lee Chiang Po]

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1153942]Haha, me neither. WCK is so much beyond this type of thinking IMO.



I would really enjoy seeing your forms. have you ever recorded them? I understand though if that is not in your interest.



Interesting. Not sure I would agree 100% as there are lineages that do not trace themselves back through the Red Boat troupes.
HFY does not, yet much of what is taught in HFYWCK is very much based on understanding the physics of the human body. Our Sup Ming Dim (10 bright points) is key, or 'road-map', to learning and understanding how the various body parts can be aligned to achieve strong structure thru proper reference point in space.



My reason for thinking acrobats is that one needs to have a very good understanding of the human physical dynamics in order to do some of the things they do. This would sort of explain why Wing Chun seems to be engineered by people of science and physics.
Wing Chun is just about the easiest thing to learn physically, and you can maintain it even into old age. Every move is actually natural to the human structure. You can naturally do more, and with greater accuracy and speed, when doing something that is completely natural to your own body movements.
Being perfectly honest, I know very little about the how and where of Wing Chun outside my own system. My dad taught many people as well as his own children. I have only passed it on to a hand full of people outside my son and grand children. I have only become aware of all the other lineages since signing on to this forum. I can immediately recognize Wing Chun when I see it, even if the sets are different. But, anything I say may not mean much.
As I told Hendrik, I will try to get a video camera and put up a clip of my sil lim set.

[Fa Xing]

Thanks Joy.
Personally I have never paid that much attention tot he history of ANY MA, perhaps because I know how "loose" many people are with their views of history of their own systems and how much gray area there truly is in EVERY MA system.
Also because what has been done before has nothing to do with what is being done now ( or lacktherof).
However I do know that for some this stuff is very important but I think that if it is that important then that it must be researched in the correct way.

This is so true, even in JKD there is deviation and it's only been around for less than 50 years and a few of Bruce's original students are still around. Luckily we are able to get multiple accounts to get a general sense of JKD history, but I can't imagine doing that for something that may or may not have happened over 200 years ago.

[kentchang]

Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Bo
If I remember correctly, My dad was born in 1880. He was old when I came along. In 1965 he died from diabetes at 85 years old. He was a Boxer in 1900 and barely missed the headsman. Later he fled the Canton area and went to Hong Kong in 49 to escape the Communists. From there he came to the states. He told me that he learned Hung Fa from ex-soldiers. They were working members of a tong gang. The stuff I related might or might not have been true, but it does make sense to me at least. These things he told me. Now I am old. Or getting old.

Originally Posted by Savi
I'm intrigued, Lee Chiang Po! From what I have learned of my kung fu family's history our 4th generation inheritor Hung Gun Biu Tong Zyu was the leader of the Hung Gun Wui during the mid 1850's. According to our history, he taught combat methods to his men which at the time he referred to as Hung Fa Kuen. During the 1870's, upon his retirement he bestowed the name of his family art, Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun Kuen.

After reading this thread I found some very interesting similarities from these non Yip Man WCK lineages. Both independently reported that their WCK lineages gave credit to Hung Fa Boxing. Specifically with the references about Hung Fa and WCK, these parallel accounts of wing chun history tend to be much more credible. No doubt these research sources can be considered more genuine for the project into the WCK history of the Red Flower Boxer society and Tan Sao Ng.

[Vajramusti]

I am not impressed with cherry picking approaches to history-wherein you begin with a preferred conclusion and then pick and choose evidence-often regarding opinions and lineage histories as evidence of a grand thesis or several theses..

Regarding slt, ck and bj--among advanced Ip Man lines those are stages of learning
as each stage is mastered. And BTW LJ was IM's sigung.

When I am working out by myself I often choose to do all three forms sequentially as one single form-no big deal,

You can master a text chapter by chapter until you learn the whole book.

This thread has snaked it's way into pits of pseudo histories. IMO of course.

joy chaudhuri

[imperialtaichi]

My teacher Master Leung extrapolated (laughingly) that Yim Wing Chun is actually Tan Sau Ng pretending to be a woman to avoid being caught. He presented a whole list of very convincing reasons at the time but I couldn't remember anything because we were all drunk

I love a good yarn. I don't really care whether they are true or not, as long as they are entertaining. It adds colour and sometimes even hidden meanings. I hate, however political stories tho (boring).

[CFT]

I don't know if the generation thing really matters when we are discussing Martial nicknames does it?? Just speculating. And FWIW 'Wu' is 5 too. So can anyone provide the Chinese characters for his name, like, anyone?

He is a mystery, as is this Tan Sau Ng 'legend' as I have heard that could have been a nickname for Ng Mui too, and 'he' could have been the first openly gay Monk.

And hasn't anyone heard the one about the opium den being the centre of ALL legends associated with Wing Chun?? And guess who owned an opium den?

For all we know Ng Jung So, Tan Sau Ng & Beggar So are the same person and that actually makes some sense I think

If we are looking for facts, wasn't it the Yiu Family who housed Ng Jung So in his later years, like the Fungs did for Leung Jan? Ng Jung So even had kids, so there is every chance his family lives on to this day (and I will say the same for Wing Chun!)

Is this just a pet theory of yours Spencer? Based on what? Ng Jung So is just another CHAN Wah Sun student, who features in the personal training history of Yip Man. I don't know why you need to dress him up in a semi-mythical figure's clothing?

Tan Sau Ng: 攤手五
Ng Jung So: 吳仲素

It was Ip Chun himself who dug up historical evidence of Cheung Ng (Tan Sau Ng) in the records of the Cantonese Opera.

[Graham H]

Is this just a pet theory of yours Spencer? Based on what? Ng Jung So is just another CHAN Wah Sun student, who features in the personal training history of Yip Man. I don't know why you need to dress him up in a semi-mythical figure's clothing?

Tan Sau Ng: 攤手五
Ng Jung So: 吳仲素

It was Ip Chun himself who dug up historical evidence of Cheung Ng (Tan Sau Ng) in the records of the Cantonese Opera.

Pet theories? Mythical figures? Spencer? Noooooooooooooooooooooooo (sarcasm)

GH

[LoneTiger108]

Is this just a pet theory of yours Spencer? Based on what?

Of course it is just made up dude. I was 'playing along' but it seems whatever I write some just take too seriously

Ng Jung So is just another CHAN Wah Sun student, who features in the personal training history of Yip Man.

Yes I know this. But he did run an opium den didn't he?

He also features in the personal training history of my own Sigung.

[Eric_H]

It was Ip Chun himself who dug up historical evidence of Cheung Ng (Tan Sau Ng) in the records of the Cantonese Opera.

CFT,

Do you have a source on that? First I'm hearing about it.

[Savi]

CFT is correct. I was told about that same fact (Ip Chun's reveal on "Cheung Ng") back in 1999/2000 by my Sifu.

[hunt1]

Stop before anyone gets carried away.

The first to mention Tan Sau Ng was Pan Nam. He told the story to Yip Chun. There is no evidence at all in the records that Tan Sau Ng even knew martial arts.

Pan Nam discovered the name in opera records as being a member of the opera troop and made the jump that since tan sau is a staple wing chun technique and since wing chun came from the opera boats that tan sau ng must be an early wing chun master.

Yip Chun stated that the Pan Nam story seemed much more plausible to him than the mythical nun story and there fore adopted the story. He even wrote this is one of his books.

Tan sau Ng could just as easily been recorded for his begging skills since tan sau can also refer to begging as in "palm up" and since Opera people were often also street performers much like you see in many cities with the guitar case open looking for tips. etc. Holding his palm out looking for a tip after a performance.

Either is just as likely since no other details were recorded in the records Pan Nam found.