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Thread: History of WCK: Tan Sau Ng

  1. #46
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    Thanks for sharing that side of the coin Hunt1. I have no recollection of exactly how Ip Chun came to discover the mention of Cheung Ng but I do remember he came to knowing of it somehow.

    While Pan Nam had knowledge of this person, how many other parties of the Red Boats have shared any knowledge/insights of Cheung Ng? According to HFYWC lore... He was not a beggar or cripple - but considering the background he is said to have from HFYWC Lore, that doesn't mean he didn't "act" like one either in disguise.
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  2. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by hunt1 View Post
    Stop before anyone gets carried away.

    The first to mention Tan Sau Ng was Pan Nam. He told the story to Yip Chun. There is no evidence at all in the records that Tan Sau Ng even knew martial arts.

    Pan Nam discovered the name in opera records as being a member of the opera troop and made the jump that since tan sau is a staple wing chun technique and since wing chun came from the opera boats that tan sau ng must be an early wing chun master.

    Yip Chun stated that the Pan Nam story seemed much more plausible to him than the mythical nun story and there fore adopted the story. He even wrote this is one of his books.

    Tan sau Ng could just as easily been recorded for his begging skills since tan sau can also refer to begging as in "palm up" and since Opera people were often also street performers much like you see in many cities with the guitar case open looking for tips. etc. Holding his palm out looking for a tip after a performance.

    Either is just as likely since no other details were recorded in the records Pan Nam found.
     

    Hunt1,

    The following confirm your post. It is Ip chun's idea based on Pan Nam.

    葉問長子葉準根據佛山永春拳的彭南陳述及研究,提出與父親不同的版本:清雍正年間,湖北藝人張五擅長攤手( 粵劇做手),人稱「攤手五」。因故從北京流亡至佛山,組織紅花會館,教授戲曲及武藝。其拳術已經初具詠春拳 的章法,經過近百年的流傳和發展,歷經嚴詠春、梁博儔、黃華寶、梁二娣等人的努力,詠春成為一套完整而成熟 的拳術,至梁贊始發揚光大[3]。

    http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/咏春拳


    I think it is ok for anyone to have idea. as soon as they also provide a reason.

    The issue needs to address here is Tan sau ng escape from Beijing to fut San. Then, how can an adult who is northen Chinese train create an southern tcma wing chun? Wing Chun is closer to other southern tcma then the northern tcma.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 01-23-2012 at 12:56 PM.

  3. #48
    。后因义军人数激增,戏服不足,便一律以红巾扎头代替冠盔,故称红巾军。

    http://www.foshanmuseum.com/wbzy/fss...asp?xsyj_ID=90


    This is from the futsan museum. According to Chinese historical facts.

    Here it address where the name of hung gan is from.

    According to the museum, lee man mau lead the red boat uprising 1850.  lee's army wearing opera costume as their uniform. Later when the followers increase drastically, they run out of costume. So, they make a rule of using the red bandana. Hung gan to replace the headwear or helmet . Thus, this army is called hung gan army.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 01-23-2012 at 12:35 PM.

  4. #49
    ***** 清雍正五年间,北京名伶张五,人称摊手五,因躲避清廷的追捕,化装易服逃亡来粤,寄居于佛山镇大基尾。为了 谋生,张五以京剧昆曲教授学徒。师徒们组成班子,到四乡演出,换一口饭吃。由于要经常外出演出,他们便寄居 于船上。而船又是主要的交通工具。为了让乡民在远处就得知有戏班到来,他们将船涂成红色,这和今天白色表示 医生、绿色表示邮差类似。于是,其后的戏班亦仿效其做法,所乘的船皆为红船。于是,“红船”便成了戏班的别 称;“红船子弟”便成为粤剧艺人的代称。
    ***** 今天,粤剧戏班外出演出已经不用坐红船了,但是,“红船”这一很特殊很美妙的名字则保留下来。今天,广东有 一个专门介绍和推广粤曲的网站,办得很红火,就叫做“棹红船粤曲网”,网友(即曲友)遍及全省甚至海外。网 络代替了船只,不能不说是时代的大进步啊!
    ******* 张五到佛山除了避难授徒,他还建立了“琼花会馆”。琼花会馆是粤剧界最早的戏行组织,所以佛山便被称为粤剧 的故乡。


    琼花会馆在如今佛山市红强街汾江河边,会馆附近的水涉头边立有一石碑,上刻“琼花水涉”四字。艺伶就是在这 水涉上落戏箱,乘红船到各地演出的。
    不过,我也看到另一段介绍,说“琼花会馆始建于明代万历年间。是最早的粤剧行业组织,为本地戏班艺伶排练、 教习、切磋艺术之地,也是当时戏班管理的机构。因供奉戏行祖师‘华光’,故又称之为琼花宫”。明万历比起清 雍正又要早百多年,不知哪个为准了。**


    http://www.2499cn.com/yuequ/2.htm


    This article present that Cheung Ng escape from beijing to futsan. And founded he fine jade association.

    However, it says here there is a stone beside the fine jade association today that is saying the fine jade association is form in mid 1500. On Ming dynasty.



    We know Cheung Ng exist and contribute to red boat opera. But there is no record on his martial art type and skill.

    We know Hung gan army exist. But that is Lee Man mau's army in 1850. Which is a seperate case with Tan Sau Ng era.

    We know Hung gan army is related with the taiping uprising and small knive association uprising in Shang hai, and red boat connection via yik kam salutation, as in my article the Shang hai connection.

    However, we also know, there are multiple tcma style involve in the above uprising chain. The white crane of fujian being practice by lee man mau, the CLF supporting the taiping, and can be trace in the weng Chun kuen the sister art of wing Chun on board of the red boat.


    It is much easy for us today to sort these out then hundred years ago .

    So, what is the relationship between the uprising and WCK. That needs to be clear out. We don't want to make anyone wrong but seeing where things comes from.
    Last edited by Hendrik; 01-23-2012 at 12:59 PM.

  5. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by hunt1 View Post
    Stop before anyone gets carried away.

    The first to mention Tan Sau Ng was Pan Nam. He told the story to Yip Chun. There is no evidence at all in the records that Tan Sau Ng even knew martial arts.

    Pan Nam discovered the name in opera records as being a member of the opera troop and made the jump that since tan sau is a staple wing chun technique and since wing chun came from the opera boats that tan sau ng must be an early wing chun master.

    Yip Chun stated that the Pan Nam story seemed much more plausible to him than the mythical nun story and there fore adopted the story. He even wrote this is one of his books.

    Tan sau Ng could just as easily been recorded for his begging skills since tan sau can also refer to begging as in "palm up" and since Opera people were often also street performers much like you see in many cities with the guitar case open looking for tips. etc. Holding his palm out looking for a tip after a performance.

    Either is just as likely since no other details were recorded in the records Pan Nam found.
    -------------------------------------------------
    Good post Hunt 1.
    Joy

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    We know Cheung Ng exist and contribute to red boat opera. But there is no record on his martial art type and skill.
    It is well known by most WCK lineages that TSN passed WCK down thru the red boats (Wong Wah Bo). Others, like HFY, also trace their connection to TSN, only thru the Hung Fa Boxers (Hung Gun Biu) vs. directly thru the red boat opera. If I understand correctly, Jackie Lee also traces his lineage thru the Hung Fa boxers.
    So, here are 2 different branches connecting to the same source of Tan Sau Ng. One line thru the WWB the other thru HGB.
    Can we verifiably say WCK was TSN's only art? No. But it's pretty safe to say WCK was a primary one with much influence in the later uprising, and also where he got his nick name from.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    We know Hung gan army exist. But that is Lee Man mau's army in 1850. Which is a seperate case with Tan Sau Ng era.
    I think most agree that these are 2 different time periods. Not sure your point?


    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    We know Hung gan army is related with the taiping uprising and small knive association uprising in Shang hai, and red boat connection via yik kam salutation, as in my article the Shang hai connection.

    However, we also know, there are multiple tcma style involve in the above uprising chain. The white crane of fujian being practice by lee man mau, the CLF supporting the taiping, and can be trace in the weng Chun kuen the sister art of wing Chun on board of the red boat.
    Ok. Not sure what you're getting at here either. Of course no one is saying WCK was the only art used by those active in the uprising if that's what you are trying to imply..

    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    So, what is the relationship between the uprising and WCK. That needs to be clear out. We don't want to make anyone wrong but seeing where things comes from.
    What are you talking about/asking here? You still don't see a connection of WCK to Red Boat Opera or Hung Mun?
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 01-24-2012 at 08:08 AM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  7. #52
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    More on Hung Gun Biu from a recent HFY article that is going to appear in the latest issue of Kung Fu Magazine:

    http://hfy108.com/forums/showthread....0906#post20906
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  8. #53
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    Thank you for the article

  9. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    ***** 清雍正五年间,北京名伶张五,人称摊手五,因躲避清廷的追捕,化装易服逃亡来粤,寄居于佛山镇大基尾。为了 谋生,张五以京剧昆曲教授学徒。师徒们组成班子,到四乡演出,换一口饭吃。由于要经常外出演出,他们便寄居 于船上。而船又是主要的交通工具。为了让乡民在远处就得知有戏班到来,他们将船涂成红色,这和今天白色表示 医生、绿色表示邮差类似。于是,其后的戏班亦仿效其做法,所乘的船皆为红船。于是,“红船”便成了戏班的别 称;“红船子弟”便成为粤剧艺人的代称。
    ***** 今天,粤剧戏班外出演出已经不用坐红船了,但是,“红船”这一很特殊很美妙的名字则保留下来。今天,广东有 一个专门介绍和推广粤曲的网站,办得很红火,就叫做“棹红船粤曲网”,网友(即曲友)遍及全省甚至海外。网 络代替了船只,不能不说是时代的大进步啊!
    ******* 张五到佛山除了避难授徒,他还建立了“琼花会馆”。琼花会馆是粤剧界最早的戏行组织,所以佛山便被称为粤剧 的故乡。


    琼花会馆在如今佛山市红强街汾江河边,会馆附近的水涉头边立有一石碑,上刻“琼花水涉”四字。艺伶就是在这 水涉上落戏箱,乘红船到各地演出的。
    不过,我也看到另一段介绍,说“琼花会馆始建于明代万历年间。是最早的粤剧行业组织,为本地戏班艺伶排练、 教习、切磋艺术之地,也是当时戏班管理的机构。因供奉戏行祖师‘华光’,故又称之为琼花宫”。明万历比起清 雍正又要早百多年,不知哪个为准了。**
    For the non-Chinese readers, here is a translation of that article (from Bing Translator).

    Cantonese Opera (song) the origin of the
    --Red boat and eight for the children and Hall
     
    Chen Xianqing
     


    Cantonese Opera, also known as Guangdong drama or Cantonese drama, part of the PI system, affected by Kun, Gore, Han, Hui, Qin, Xiang and other types of moisture and impact, borrowed its singing has absorbed, Director of local music and folk song and sung in Cantonese dialect, and traditional Chinese culture can be traced, and special typical local characteristics. Cantonese Opera, Cantata is in the form of Cantonese Opera.
    Guangdong is located in the South, historically, especially in feudal times, Guangdong economic and cultural backwardness in central China, it was no surprise. The song and Yuan dynasties, Opera has developed in the North and at the prevalence of Guangdong is still the land of the huangman, I am afraid, is "all the year round not heard sound of music". Song Mo and the late Ming, foreign invasion, Zhongyuan people lots to Lingnan asylum migration, Guangdong was many people, and culture in the North were followed there.
    During the five years of the Qing dynasty, a famous actor in Beijing Friday, five person threw up his hands, Chase fleeing Qing, fled to Guangdong cosmetic clothing, staying in town based in Foshan. To earn a living, Zhang Wu taught in Peking Opera Opera apprenticeship. Prentice make up the team, to the suburbs show, for rice to eat. Because you want to go out performances, they are alien on board. And the ship is the main means of transport. Learned that the troupe comes to villagers in the distance, they will ship painted red, and white doctors, green indicates that the Mailman is similar today. So, the subsequent theatrical troupe to follow its practice, in which ships are red boat. Thus, "red boat" became the alias of the troupe; "children of red boat" would become the alternative name of Cantonese Opera artists.
    Today, the Cantonese opera troupe out performances have not sat red boat, however, the "red boat" of this very special, very beautiful name is preserved. Today, the canton has a dedicated presentation and promotion of Cantonese Opera website, does it fire, is called the "Cantonese Opera oar red boat network", friends (song) all over the province and even overseas. Network instead of a vessel, say that it is a great improvement in the era of Ah!
    Zhang Wu to Foshan, in addition to the refuge shoutu, he also established "the flowers Hall". Play line and flowers Hall is the oldest Opera territories in organizations, Foshan is known as the home of Cantonese Opera. Flowers Hall in Foshan red power street edge of the fen River, near the center of water involving head set with a stone tablet, engraved with "flowers of water involved" four characters. Art is resourceful in this water fell on the play in question box, take the red boat to performances throughout. However, I also see another section of the introduction, says, "and flowers Hall was built in the Ming dynasty Wanli. Is the first Cantonese Opera industry organization for local troupe resourceful rehearsals, art teachers, compitetion of art, is when the troupe management institutions. Dedicated to play line of Patriarchs ' huaguang ', so it is also known as Joan flower Palace ". Ming Wanli emperor Yongzheng of the Qing dynasty and early hundred years, I do not know which prevail.
    Flowers Hall established, other halls are established, however, the scale is less than flowers Hall. Foshan Chung-yi, according to the log records: "in the town hall where the 37, magnificent flowers Hall building, Hall of contraction. "Flowers Hall area ratio Foshan ancestral temple was large, and four large columns at the entrance, there is also a pavilion. Foshan an idolatrous procession, for the time being, necessary for every God Festival staged Opera, has a song in zhuzhi poems describes this event in the Qing dynasty: "Pear Garden dance game, amidst the bustling, red sand ship late, but Tian Kuang Festival year after year, thousands of people around to watch flowers". "Thousands of people around to watch flowers", beyond rhyme needs should also emphasize "flowers Hall" at the time.
    In addition to the large, then Joan Flower Club "power" is also very strong, it was a draw and the authorities of Guangdong, Guangxi, Cantonese Opera industry, do Wen Guangxin now part of the functions of the Council. Such as a copyright problem, which the troupe lined up for the new play to Club play once, after getting approval to perform, not stealing peer performance exhaust free content; there are venue dispute problem, if two troupe to a site at performances, it is necessary to rely on Association to coordinate.
    Cantonese people often said "eight and Club", then what is the "eight"? The original, you can find source and flowers Hall. As the Opera Guild, flowers Hall has a strict management system, Hall, Interior guard and, Siu, Hing and, fuhe, Xinhe, Yungho, Duc Hoa, puhe etc eight Church, respectively, administer in a unified way belongs to the Congregation. The "eight and fame" should be regarded as different eight theatrical troupe, should also form a variety of styles and genres.
    Today, flowers Hall is still in Foshan? It is a pity, of Foshan in late Qing and flowers Hall banned because of Cantonese Opera artists of the uprising, and resourceful people are not permitted to play Opera, flowers Hall is no longer running, and later a character in drama of Cantonese Opera kuangxinhua and others to comply with her wishes, yellow sand built in Guangzhou "eight and Hall". Also requires establishment of a new club must than all firms Trade Union Hall to the magnificent Guangzhou, to let the world recognition of Cantonese Opera, Cantonese Opera proud! Since then, Foshan and flowers Hall gradually declining and dilapidated, has ceased to exist. Until now, at the Museum of Foshan of Guangdong Opera, was a problem "and flowers Hall" four characters of the new Memorial, in remembrance of Joan Flower Club that year's brilliant.
    Guangzhou's "eight and Club" has not completed? Really kuangxinhua advocate, Bank-funded effort, built in the Qing dynasty to the 15 year 1889, the site of yellow sand in Guangzhou. "Eight and" II word of meaning, apart from above of explained, due to new of construction, and more has a explained: "eight" word meaning means on line of people, "people" Word above separated is "eight" Word, "and" who harmony, working together with, created Opera new world, two species meaning, are stressed a "and" Word, and for your, and and for Shang, for play line past scholars ' enjoyment of essence is located.
      How well new Hall built? According to historical records, the building was very grand indeed but also derived from a legendary story.
    For lining up the Hall, the door must be high enough and broad enough, but to do so, we must first find such large wood, but this one piece of wood it is hard to find, otherwise you can only spell pieces of wood, but they did not want to use to spell out the door, for which is vexing, head, no response. A night, China Light master to head reported dream, said a Department has giant wood may for door, so second days morning head on to first division pointing of local a see, missing what trees, only see a large time, this thought dreams for virtual, later he and wanted to, will to Tibetan in time under, so life people pumping dry time, really in dries up of Riverbed lying with a large cedar, on trees in the of Wei husband has "thousand years pine, and Wan Nianbai" of said, this huge a cedar, is rare. Yellow sand "eight and Club" the door is made of cedar, it is higher than the gate of Guangzhou Chen ancestral temple also, thick, heavy, and later Japan's invasion of China, Guangzhou aircraft bombing, Sands was razed, "eight and Club" will not be spared, but the fact that two Cedar door, remain firm, non-destructive nickels. In 1946, the Cantonese Opera community in Henning road reconstruction of the "eight and Hall". Because Henning road "eight and Club" was expedient Club, place is small, doesn't fit these two doors, and the two doors to the street after Henning road reconstruction "Luang Hall". During the cultural revolution, the two door was regarded as the "Four Olds", abandoned the dark corner, again as a bypass for trucks up and down, and be extremely heavy weight. After the cultural revolution, Gates began have returned. Pitch dark door has undergone many vicissitudes, has remained strong as ever, actor or actress to this visit, there will always be a dash lamented.
    Now rebuilt eight and Guild, vermilion gates restart, for many years opening, interested people can tour inside, but also a number of Opera enthusiasts were there to participate in "private group", to show their singing.
     

    Hendrik, I know the readability of this translation is poor. Can you point out exactly where Tan Sau Ng appears in it? Thanks.
    Last edited by Wayfaring; 01-25-2012 at 11:30 AM.

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    For the non-Chinese readers, here is a translation of that article (from Bing Translator).

    Cantonese Opera (song) the origin of the
    --Red boat and eight for the children and Hall
     
    Chen Xianqing
     


    Cantonese Opera, also known as Guangdong drama or Cantonese drama, part of the PI system, affected by Kun, Gore, Han, Hui, Qin, Xiang and other types of moisture and impact, borrowed its singing has absorbed, Director of local music and folk song and sung in Cantonese dialect, and traditional Chinese culture can be traced, and special typical local characteristics. Cantonese Opera, Cantata is in the form of Cantonese Opera.
    Guangdong is located in the South, historically, especially in feudal times, Guangdong economic and cultural backwardness in central China, it was no surprise. The song and Yuan dynasties, Opera has developed in the North and at the prevalence of Guangdong is still the land of the huangman, I am afraid, is "all the year round not heard sound of music". Song Mo and the late Ming, foreign invasion, Zhongyuan people lots to Lingnan asylum migration, Guangdong was many people, and culture in the North were followed there.
    During the five years of the Qing dynasty, a famous actor in Beijing Friday, five person threw up his hands, Chase fleeing Qing, fled to Guangdong cosmetic clothing, staying in town based in Foshan. To earn a living, Zhang Wu taught in Peking Opera Opera apprenticeship. Prentice make up the team, to the suburbs show, for rice to eat. Because you want to go out performances, they are alien on board. And the ship is the main means of transport. Learned that the troupe comes to villagers in the distance, they will ship painted red, and white doctors, green indicates that the Mailman is similar today. So, the subsequent theatrical troupe to follow its practice, in which ships are red boat. Thus, "red boat" became the alias of the troupe; "children of red boat" would become the alternative name of Cantonese Opera artists.
    Today, the Cantonese opera troupe out performances have not sat red boat, however, the "red boat" of this very special, very beautiful name is preserved. Today, the canton has a dedicated presentation and promotion of Cantonese Opera website, does it fire, is called the "Cantonese Opera oar red boat network", friends (song) all over the province and even overseas. Network instead of a vessel, say that it is a great improvement in the era of Ah!
    Zhang Wu to Foshan, in addition to the refuge shoutu, he also established "the flowers Hall". Play line and flowers Hall is the oldest Opera territories in organizations, Foshan is known as the home of Cantonese Opera. Flowers Hall in Foshan red power street edge of the fen River, near the center of water involving head set with a stone tablet, engraved with "flowers of water involved" four characters. Art is resourceful in this water fell on the play in question box, take the red boat to performances throughout. However, I also see another section of the introduction, says, "and flowers Hall was built in the Ming dynasty Wanli. Is the first Cantonese Opera industry organization for local troupe resourceful rehearsals, art teachers, compitetion of art, is when the troupe management institutions. Dedicated to play line of Patriarchs ' huaguang ', so it is also known as Joan flower Palace ". Ming Wanli emperor Yongzheng of the Qing dynasty and early hundred years, I do not know which prevail.
    Flowers Hall established, other halls are established, however, the scale is less than flowers Hall. Foshan Chung-yi, according to the log records: "in the town hall where the 37, magnificent flowers Hall building, Hall of contraction. "Flowers Hall area ratio Foshan ancestral temple was large, and four large columns at the entrance, there is also a pavilion. Foshan an idolatrous procession, for the time being, necessary for every God Festival staged Opera, has a song in zhuzhi poems describes this event in the Qing dynasty: "Pear Garden dance game, amidst the bustling, red sand ship late, but Tian Kuang Festival year after year, thousands of people around to watch flowers". "Thousands of people around to watch flowers", beyond rhyme needs should also emphasize "flowers Hall" at the time.
    In addition to the large, then Joan Flower Club "power" is also very strong, it was a draw and the authorities of Guangdong, Guangxi, Cantonese Opera industry, do Wen Guangxin now part of the functions of the Council. Such as a copyright problem, which the troupe lined up for the new play to Club play once, after getting approval to perform, not stealing peer performance exhaust free content; there are venue dispute problem, if two troupe to a site at performances, it is necessary to rely on Association to coordinate.
    Cantonese people often said "eight and Club", then what is the "eight"? The original, you can find source and flowers Hall. As the Opera Guild, flowers Hall has a strict management system, Hall, Interior guard and, Siu, Hing and, fuhe, Xinhe, Yungho, Duc Hoa, puhe etc eight Church, respectively, administer in a unified way belongs to the Congregation. The "eight and fame" should be regarded as different eight theatrical troupe, should also form a variety of styles and genres.
    Today, flowers Hall is still in Foshan? It is a pity, of Foshan in late Qing and flowers Hall banned because of Cantonese Opera artists of the uprising, and resourceful people are not permitted to play Opera, flowers Hall is no longer running, and later a character in drama of Cantonese Opera kuangxinhua and others to comply with her wishes, yellow sand built in Guangzhou "eight and Hall". Also requires establishment of a new club must than all firms Trade Union Hall to the magnificent Guangzhou, to let the world recognition of Cantonese Opera, Cantonese Opera proud! Since then, Foshan and flowers Hall gradually declining and dilapidated, has ceased to exist. Until now, at the Museum of Foshan of Guangdong Opera, was a problem "and flowers Hall" four characters of the new Memorial, in remembrance of Joan Flower Club that year's brilliant.
    Guangzhou's "eight and Club" has not completed? Really kuangxinhua advocate, Bank-funded effort, built in the Qing dynasty to the 15 year 1889, the site of yellow sand in Guangzhou. "Eight and" II word of meaning, apart from above of explained, due to new of construction, and more has a explained: "eight" word meaning means on line of people, "people" Word above separated is "eight" Word, "and" who harmony, working together with, created Opera new world, two species meaning, are stressed a "and" Word, and for your, and and for Shang, for play line past scholars ' enjoyment of essence is located.
      How well new Hall built? According to historical records, the building was very grand indeed but also derived from a legendary story.
    For lining up the Hall, the door must be high enough and broad enough, but to do so, we must first find such large wood, but this one piece of wood it is hard to find, otherwise you can only spell pieces of wood, but they did not want to use to spell out the door, for which is vexing, head, no response. A night, China Light master to head reported dream, said a Department has giant wood may for door, so second days morning head on to first division pointing of local a see, missing what trees, only see a large time, this thought dreams for virtual, later he and wanted to, will to Tibetan in time under, so life people pumping dry time, really in dries up of Riverbed lying with a large cedar, on trees in the of Wei husband has "thousand years pine, and Wan Nianbai" of said, this huge a cedar, is rare. Yellow sand "eight and Club" the door is made of cedar, it is higher than the gate of Guangzhou Chen ancestral temple also, thick, heavy, and later Japan's invasion of China, Guangzhou aircraft bombing, Sands was razed, "eight and Club" will not be spared, but the fact that two Cedar door, remain firm, non-destructive nickels. In 1946, the Cantonese Opera community in Henning road reconstruction of the "eight and Hall". Because Henning road "eight and Club" was expedient Club, place is small, doesn't fit these two doors, and the two doors to the street after Henning road reconstruction "Luang Hall". During the cultural revolution, the two door was regarded as the "Four Olds", abandoned the dark corner, again as a bypass for trucks up and down, and be extremely heavy weight. After the cultural revolution, Gates began have returned. Pitch dark door has undergone many vicissitudes, has remained strong as ever, actor or actress to this visit, there will always be a dash lamented.
    Now rebuilt eight and Guild, vermilion gates restart, for many years opening, interested people can tour inside, but also a number of Opera enthusiasts were there to participate in "private group", to show their singing.
     

    Hendrik, I know the readability of this translation is poor. Can you point out exactly where Tan Sau Ng appears in it? Thanks.
    You need to make sure you have a proper input and output before look for Tan Sau Ng.


    Feed the following section to the translator.

    清雍正五年间,北京名伶张五,人称摊手五,因躲避清廷的追捕,化装易服逃亡来粤,寄居于佛山镇 大基尾。为了 谋生,张五以京剧昆曲教授学徒。师徒们组成班子,到四乡演出,换一口饭吃。

  11. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by Hendrik View Post
    You need to make sure you have a proper input and output before look for Tan Sau Ng.


    Feed the following section to the translator.

    清雍正五年间,北京名伶张五,人称摊手五,因躲避清廷的追捕,化装易服逃亡来粤,寄居于佛山镇 大基尾。为了 谋生,张五以京剧昆曲教授学徒。师徒们组成班子,到四乡演出,换一口饭吃。
    OK I see. Here's Google's Translator:

    Qing Emperor Yongzheng five years, Beijing Opera stars Zhang five-person Tanshou five, due to the Qing court to avoid pursuit, fled Laiyue easy to wear make-up, dwelling in the town of Foshan large base end. To make a living, Professor Zhang Kun Opera apprentice to five. Mentoring are integral team to perform the four townships, for food to eat.

    Here's Bing's:

    During the five years of the Qing dynasty, a famous actor in Beijing Friday, five person threw up his hands, Chase fleeing Qing, fled to Guangdong cosmetic clothing, staying in town based in Foshan. To earn a living, Zhang Wu taught in Peking Opera Opera apprenticeship. Prentice make up the team, to the suburbs show, for rice to eat.

    Apparently Tan Sau Ng is represented as a Beijing Opera star / famous actor named "Zhang five-person Tanshou five" or "Friday, five person thew up his hands".

    So is what you are saying that Tan Sau Ng was a famous actor in Beijing, fled the Qing army, and took up residence in Foshan?

    Interesting what the hack translator engines bring up - the "throw up his hands" and the number "5" could possibly have some indication of the tan sau WCK technique. That's just showing alternative possible translations of the guys name, right?

    I don't know that you could really try and prove anything regarding the guy's WCK background and training based on the fact he was a Beijing opera star and fled to Foshan. The opera in Beijing offered quite an opportunity and I'm sure many of the opera stars may not have been born there. You probably could surmise that the guy had a pretty good voice, though. A "Pavarotti" of sorts. Was he a tenor or a baritone? Also a possibility is the guy escaped the Qinq disguised as a beggar to flee from Beijing to Foshan, thus supporting some of the other folklore.

    So does this little piece of information inspire some of the WCK TCMA traditionalists to get some opera training? Hone your skills to sing "The Barber of Seville" while deflecting incoming punches?

  12. #57
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    UK
    Posts
    1,655
    Machine translations are ker-rap!

    清雍正五年间
    The 5th year of the Qing Emperor Yongzheng's reign
    北京名伶张五
    Famous Beijing actor Cheung Ng (Zhang Wu)
    人称摊手五
    Called 'Tan Sau Ng' (Ng being his name, tan sau his special characteristic)

  13. #58
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    North London, England
    Posts
    3,003
    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    So does this little piece of information inspire some of the WCK TCMA traditionalists to get some opera training? Hone your skills to sing "The Barber of Seville" while deflecting incoming punches?
    I would consider asking students that have either actively performed for their Sifu or even trained in an 'Operatic' Wing Chun lineage, because these will be the people who may know a little more about the influences the Red Boat people had on the Wing Chun at the time. And this does include non-WCK people.

    As much as I have time to listen to others who are directly linked to the Hung Suen Hay Ban Chung, I am more interested in seeing staged presentations of their interpretation!! This should be 'natural' for these students, as it will be in their practise and curriculums. There is no hiding 'secrets' on stage and no second chance to make your favourite technique work. A different physical pressure than a fight, maybe, but very very similar psychology imho.

    From my own experiences, this 'live' demonstration of ability and skill is a much better way for us all to exchange and share
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  14. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    I guess everyone did because from lineage to lineage you will see that the forms are completely different.
    Sometimes you'll see this happening within the same lineage. See TWC's and HFY's SNT and Advanced Siu Nin Tau.
    BTW, Hung Fa Yi's advanced Siu Nin Tau changes from time to time. I myself have learnt 4 different versions, with changes in the order of movements execution included, in the last six years (before that, I knew only the regular SNT).

  15. #60
    Sometimes HFY story gets much too much complex for my poor understanding, even being a HFY practitioner myself.

    If we look into the first articles about HFY history, we'll find references about the "one" Tan Sau that gave such a nickname to Cheung Ng. Thus, Cheung Ng was his name and Tan Sau Ng his nickname, because of that "one" Tan Sau.

    Now, it's "five" Tan Sau, and the "Ng" is no more his name, but a part of his nickname.

    After all, what's the right information according to HFY's lore?

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