History of WCK: Tan Sau Ng

[JPinAZ]

Sometimes you'll see this happening within the same lineage. See TWC's and HFY's SNT and Advanced Siu Nin Tau.
BTW, Hung Fa Yi's advanced Siu Nin Tau changes from time to time. I myself have learnt 4 different versions, with changes in the order of movements execution included, in the last six years (before that, I knew only the regular SNT).

HFY has only 'one' SNT. The variances you might see will depend on what is being focused on in training at that time. Say you have been to X workshops focusing on X different subjects, certain portions of the form can be 'performed' differently to help the student understand and drill what is being focused on. This is easy to see if you look at the form conceptually vs. just seeing the techniques themselves.

When looking at the out-to-in ending part of the 'heun sau' portion of section one, one might say "hey, that used to be a faat sau to gaan sau!" and the answer might be "it is faat sau, if we are focusing on faat sau kiu sau, but now we are focusing on [fill in the blank] so it is a different shape (say leet sau instead of faat sau), but same idea". The concepts don't change, just the application within the context of what is trying to be taught at that moment - and this can easily be reflected in the from.

Sometimes a SLT solo drill can be made to help further understanding. I still hear people say "but this is different than the from", again, same reasoning. What is it you are trying to learn at that time? Techniques, or something deeper

[Savi]

Tan Sao Ng/Cheung Ng (攤手五, 張五) are both nicknames of Cheung Hin (張興), just as Hung Gun Biu/Chan Biu (紅巾彪, 陳彪) are nicknames of Chu Tien Jow (朱天就). Both men of their respective eras (1730's and 1850's) were high ranking leaders of the Hung Gun Wui, and had different aliases because of the nature of their positions.

In HFY, many things may seem to change on the outside, and at times (and as said before) the forms are dynamic and may change to reflect the tools and material you train at given points in time. That is also an example of HFY's philosophy of Tien Yan Dei Saam Mo Kiu at work. However confusing that may be on the surface, the core of the art has always remained in tact. What is important is understanding what you are expressing in the form and knowing the software that drives each action.

[Wayfaring]

Tan Sao Ng/Cheung Ng (攤手五, 張五) are both nicknames of Cheung Hin (張興)

Well, that's kind of cool to look at. Both the "Tan Sau" and the "5" are elements of a nickname.

Well, that's one thing that TCMA WCK doesn't have enough of. Nicknames.

Do any of you have nicknames? Those that you care to share and are appropriate for internet viewing?

[LoneTiger108]

Do any of you have nicknames? Those that you care to share and are appropriate for internet viewing?

My Username here is my own invention, but yep! I do have a 'Chinese Nickname' given to me by my Sifu as do many others.

[Savi]

Well, that's kind of cool to look at. Both the "Tan Sau" and the "5" are elements of a nickname.

Well, that's one thing that TCMA WCK doesn't have enough of. Nicknames.

Do any of you have nicknames? Those that you care to share and are appropriate for internet viewing?

According to HFY lore, Tan Sao Ng is more than just a nickname, but a reference to the science of HFYWCK. Whilst the Tan Sao can be viewed as a single technique from one POV, or 5 different Tan Sao techniques from another POV, it can also be said to be both from a third POV as 5 specific ways to use the Tan Sao. Based on the software of HFYWCK, a combination of HFY's Centerline Theory, Five Line Theory, Box Theory, and Tin Yan Dei, all give rise to five specific actions behind the usage of the HFY Tan, which is all driven by the use and awareness of space and the terms of engagement.

Extra: One is driven the Centerline, two are driven by HFY's Five Line Theory, and the other two are driven by HFY's Box Theory, all share the HFY Tin Yan Dei Concept.

[Marcelo-RJ]

Thank you, Savi and JPinAZ, for the requested info.
I was told by Sifu Meng and GM Gee, more than once, about how the HFY forms are adaptable to the technique that is being focused at a particular moment.

However, that's not what I was referring to. I've seen different SNT's in my HFY training - one "regular" (without the animals section) and other "advanced" (with the animals section). And I've also seen GM Gee practicing and teaching some movements in different orders at different times.

As to Cheung Hin etc: do you guys have access to any concrete artefact or are those articles written according to GM Gee's oral account only? Is there, by any means, a possibility that, from now on, verifiable/objective data and oral tradition be distinguished from each other when new info comes out from the HFY school of WC? Is there a chance that the upcoming articles and other writtings by the HFY staff will come out in a more academic fashion?

Thanks again for your time and kindness.

All the best!

[Savi]

Thank you, Savi and JPinAZ, for the requested info.
I was told by Sifu Meng and GM Gee, more than once, about how the HFY forms are adaptable to the technique that is being focused at a particular moment.

However, that's not what I was referring to. I've seen different SNT's in my HFY training - one "regular" (without the animals section) and other "advanced" (with the animals section). And I've also seen GM Gee practicing and teaching some movements in different orders at different times.

I am unfamiliar with what you are referring to in terms of "animals" within the HFY SNT form.

As to Cheung Hin etc: do you guys have access to any concrete artefact or are those articles written according to GM Gee's oral account only? Is there, by any means, a possibility that, from now on, verifiable/objective data and oral tradition be distinguished from each other when new info comes out from the HFY school of WC? Is there a chance that the upcoming articles and other writtings by the HFY staff will come out in a more academic fashion?

Thanks again for your time and kindness.

All the best!

I cannot speak to any future publications. Everything I have shared to date is based on direct teachings.

[Marcelo-RJ]

I am unfamiliar with what you are referring to in terms of "animals" within the HFY SNT form.

Last portion: Tan Kiu, Eagle Bong Sau, Crane Bong Sau, Dragon Claw. Those hands and shapes were not there until 2006.

BTW, does your last statement mean that everything written (at least by yourself) about HFY WC up to this date is based on oral accounts/teachings only?

[Savi]

Last portion: Tan Kiu, Eagle Bong Sau, Crane Bong Sau, Dragon Claw. Those hands and shapes were not there until 2006.

The third section of HFYSNT contain those hands, Eagle and Crane Bong Sao and Dragon Claw. Section 2 contains Phoenix Eye fists. What has been taught over the years is a reflection of the Saam Mo Kiu philosophy, as I stated before. The aspects of those specific hands are indicators of the system as oppsosed to san sau learning format.

BTW, does your last statement mean that everything written (at least by yourself) about HFY WC up to this date is based on oral accounts/teachings only?

Much of what I write and share with the public revolves around the science, philosophy, culture, and history, of HFYWCK. More so than anything else what I write are based from personal experiences of the science.

[Savi]

Another interesting note since we are on the topic of Siu Nim Tao and Tan Sao Ng is that the 5 aforementioned Tan in HFYWCK are all contained within and throughout all 3 sections of the HFY SNT form.

The Hou Kuit of this system component is called HFY Five Tan Sao Bai Jong Faat, and centers around how to use the Tan Sao based on HFY's Wing Chun Formula.

[duende]

Last portion: Tan Kiu, Eagle Bong Sau, Crane Bong Sau, Dragon Claw. Those hands and shapes were not there until 2006.

BTW, does your last statement mean that everything written (at least by yourself) about HFY WC up to this date is based on oral accounts/teachings only?

Hey Marcelo...

Who are you trying to be here??? The expert or the novice??

First you make claims about our advanced SNT form, and then you ask the most basic rudementary question about our Hou Chun San Sau (face to face/hand's on) teaching method???

Doesn't make sense really. Where are you trying to go here?

Fwiw, Hok Bong (Crane Bong Sau) was among the first techniques I drilled. Same for Dragon claw. It's one of the first skill challenges we use to test Tan Sau structure.

Don't be upset by what you don't know. Instead, Appreciate what you do know.



Now back to self-imposed exile.

[Eric_H]

Now that I have had a chance to train under my Sifu's roof directly, as well as meet many of his students from the 1980's to today I can tell you that, yes, we do have two different Siu Nim Tao forms going all the way back. The Advanced Siu Nim Tao form was (and still is) taught to people who were accepted as core students or disciples of the system - people who were accepted by our teacher for their loyalty, and commitment to the system beyond just an average student. Basic Siu Nim Tao was taught to people who were just passing through or regular students.

In the last few years, our teacher has decided to open up Advanced Siu Nim Tao to everyone, but we still do teach the basic Siu Nim Tao version to beginners or people who cannot make many classes. It is much easier to learn and still gives students a sense of the Wing Chun "Hardware" by primary focusing on Hung Fa Yi's 4 gate theory. In comparison, Advanced Siu Nim tao focuses more on centerline/box theory/tien yan dei in addition to the 4 gate theory.

[Savi]

Indeed Eric. Good post, and in addition to that, the HFY (Advanced) SNT comprises heavily on the tech behind the Kiu Sao-Chi Kiu-Chi Sao platform. It is no simple task to complete and is quite extensive.

I teach both basic and advanced SNT forms with my group. Is it confusing? Not in the least.

[Eric_H]

Indeed Eric. Good post, and in addition to that, the HFY (Advanced) SNT comprises heavily on the tech behind the Kiu Sao-Chi Kiu-Chi Sao platform. It is no simple task to complete and is quite extensive.

True enuff, hope we get to work on it more at the next seminar!

[Marcelo-RJ]

Hey Marcelo...
Who are you trying to be here??? The expert or the novice??

Hey Alex, long time no speak!

I'm not trying anything, but understanding some things I haven't understood yet.
Sometimes it's hard to figure out what's going on, for simple questions are taken for attacks and searching for some answers is taken for having "hidden agenda" within our HFY family.

However, I've been into it for the last 8 years and people down here make questions all the time.

That's it.

See, I made a simple statement: HFY and TWC have both regular and advanced SNT forms.

And, yes, you told eagle and dragon were drilled long ago, but what I say is that those hands are not in the "regular" SNT.

Do I need to be an expert to make such a statement, brother?

Now, since HFY forms change according to the training focus (no question), is it correct to state that what is "unchangeble" in HFY are the concepts + principles and their application to the technical training? I mean, the shapes may change, but the principles and concepts are always behind them and giving them the HFY "signature"?