The Whole Grappling Vs Standup Argument

[KnightSabre]

I wasn't going to reply but reading some of these posts I think I'm gonna have to.

Not even sure where to begin.

Ok I've trained in a few styles including Wing Chun (2 years under world champ Steven Zippliers),Northern Long Fist and 5 Animals (4 and a half years).I really enjoyed them but I was still searching.

Now I train Muay Thai/JKD and BJJ/Submission Grappling.
I've been training MMA for about 5 years now.

I think that the striker vs grappler argument is stupid.The truth is you need to learn both.
Just think how well rounded you will be if you can fight at any range,striking,clinching,and the ground.

I sence that the kung fu guys feel threatened by BJJ.Apart from guys like Ralek shoving BJJ in your faces I really think that deep down inside you feel threatened.Instead of feeling like this and saying how your tiger rake,or snake strike to the eye could stop him from taking you down,why don't you combine it with your kung fu?

I have 3 friends who still train at the kung fu school that I trained at.They have been there like 8 almost 9 years.There standup fighting is good,but when they decided to come to me for private lessons in grappling they were amazed.They then told me that it's a different world on the ground and that the chin na they had learnt didn't work in most of those situations.

After about 6 months of privates they started to beat the guys 3 or 4 years ahead of them,they also told me that once they got one of the seniors to the ground the seniors didn't have a clue what was going on.

I'm not saying that kung fu is bad,in the same sence I sparred (full contact) against a pro Heavy Weight boxer,he hits like a mule and he was definately dominating the standup ,but once I got him on the ground it was so easy for me to avoid his punches and to put him into submissions or hit him.Why cause just like the kung fu guys he didn't know how to fight on the ground.Where is this guy now?He supplements his boxing with BJJ and is gonna be a real bad ass one of these days.
He also happens to be a bouncer and has told us on numerous occasions how he used grappling to defeat guys on the street.

I've had a NHB match (no biting,groin strikes,eye gouging) with a 2nd degree Ninjitsu instructor.I won the match in 35 seconds by using a slam take down and mounted punches,I think if I had tried to beat him standup the fight would have taken alot longer.

It also bewilders me when guys say "but on the street you won't tap".
Tapping is done to stop one of many things.
Arm bar - your arm will be broken.
Key Lock - Your shoulder will be dislocated.
Any choke - You will pass out and be kicked to death.
Ankle lock - Your ankle will be snapped.
Knee bar- Your knee will be popped.
Neck Cranks - tap out or expect serious damage.
Kimura - Shoulder dislocation.

BJJ is not perfect,no style is.
Thats why you combine two good styles to make a formidable combination.

I do however from my experience and from what I've witnessed believe that as a singular style BJJ is the best fighting style there is.The only guys that consistently beat BJJers are MMA.No single style has consistently beaten them.

Anywayz enough of my ranting,I respect all arts but I do believe that style has alot to do with how well you can fight.

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

"You're Good Kid Real Good,But As Long As I'm Arround You'll Always Be Second Best See".

[gfhegel21]

Good post.

[Budokan]

"I sence (sic) that kung fu guys feel threatned by BJJ. I really think that deep down inside you feel threatened." --Knighsabre's psychological analysis on how we all feel deep down inside. :rolleyes:

Uh, thanks for the Freudian (or this actually may be Jungian, I don't know) analysis (I guess) but no thanks. I know this is going to come as a complete shock to your narrow-visioned world, but many of us DON'T feel threatened. I know it hurts to hear that, and shakes the foundation of your already misguided belief, but you're a big fellow now and sometimes people have to hear the truth so they don't go around wasting their time in La-La Land.

Trust me, we're not threatened either by your style, or you, or Rolls or any other BJJ bomb-thrower who comes onto these pages and makes similar claims.

In a nutshell, it's all so very *YAWN* tiresome. :rolleyes:

K. Mark Hoover

[LEGEND]

Does that are willing to EMPTY their cup of tea and try something different...LOL...like I said before...to stop a grappler learn to sprawl, ****, crossface...learn the anti-takedown tactics...relying on KO( elbow or punch to the head crap ) is wishful thinking. It's not necessary for kf standup fighters to supplement their game with BJJ. Just learn to avoid the ground by anti takedown tactics.

A

[JWTAYLOR]

Legend, I agree, but you had better train your anti takedown techniques as much and as hard as they train their takedown techniques. Depending on the art, that's pretty hard to do. BJJ, for example, seems pretty weak in the takedown department as compared to something like Greco Roman or Freestyle wrestling or even Shuai Jiow.

JWT

If you pr!ck us, do we not bleed? If you poison us, do we not die? And if you wrong us, shall we not revenge? If we are like you in the rest, we will resemble you in that the villany you teach me, I will execute, and it shall go hard but I will better the instruction. MOV

[Tigerstyle]

Budokan,
I think you lash out at BJJ'ers because, deep down, you fell threatened by BJJ. :p

KnightSabre,
I agree with you about a combined striking/grappling approach (as I'm sure most people here do too).

I started learning a bit of wrestling and BJJ with a friend a little over a year ago (only a little, because we don't have a set schedule to train together). It has really improved a lot of aspects of my MA training. I have even begun to see more applications in the forms that I know.

I don't go to a kung fu school that teaches the "complete style" (you know, the 5% of all kung fu schools that 80% of the kung fu people here seem to be lucky enough to have found ;) ), so I use the grappling to "recreate" my "complete style".

IMHO, Crosstraining is as old as martial arts, so I think I'm being very traditional in my approach.


BTW: Budokan, I saw a traditional Shotokan school at a MA demonstration not too long ago, and that school ROCKED!

[Jaguar Wong]

"I sence that the kung fu guys feel threatened by BJJ.Apart from guys like Ralek shoving BJJ in your faces I really think that deep down inside you feel threatened.Instead of feeling like this and saying how your tiger rake,or snake strike to the eye could stop him from taking you down,why don't you combine it with your kung fu?"

I know Budokan didn't really agree with the first part of this quote, and I must say I think it's not entirely accurate. A lot of the traditionalists don't feel threatened, most just have a sense of security in their anti-takedown techniques. I'll admit that I learned a couple of techs to stop takedowns in Kung Fu, but I never really trusted them, only because I never tried them. I don't know if they'll work, but until I find out, I probably won't be relying on them.

But, the rest of the quote is good. I don't think they need to go and add BJJ to their arsenal (it can get pretty expensive if they don't have many options as to how they can learn it, along with their base style). I do, however feel that they need to at least find some compitent grapplers (preferably wrestlers, because they're very abundant, and more than willing to work with you) to attempt takedowns and actually see if your techs work. I would personally try to get at least a basic understanding of the other style, though, but I think you can get by if you're at least exposed to the style, and learning to use your art against other styles.

One of Musashi's key principles is "Become familiar with all arts." Meaning that if you are familiar with their tactics (not just what you see on TV, but a more in-depth knowledge with actual practitioners), you'll have a better chance at using your personal strengths to defeat them. Not 100% of the time, but at least you won't be caught off guard, and flop around until you're flattened with a rather thugish G&P (my personal favorite right now since I'm getting better at the knee on belly position :)).

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

[gfhegel21]

Methinks budokan doth protest too much.

[Jaguar Wong]

JWT, that's true, but I think a lot of stand up styles have much weaker takedown defenses, like Boxing :). Sometimes BJJ isn't concerned with stopping the takedown, because their working for a sub the second they hit (like Frank Shamrock vs Kevin Jackson, and Enson Inue vs Royce Algiers).

Some of the best anti takedown guys generally have a very indepth understanding of how to root, without having to go through all the stance work that we did :). Wrestlers and Judoka are pretty solid with both feet planted.

Jaguar Wong

"If you learn to balance a tack hammer on your head
then you learn to head up a balanced attack!"
- The Sphinx

[thumper]

I've been taking Ba Gua now for a few years and I'd be down to take some bjj classes to understand their approach to taking fights to the ground. If anything, it'll improve my Ba Gua. Anyone know of any good classes in the NY/NJ, and the FL areas (i'm constantly going back and forth)?

"...either you like reincarnation or the smell of carnations..."
- Cannibal Ox

[Nexus]

Get a good foundation in the art that you train in, and then feel free to try out other arts and get a feel for what you need to modify in your art to accomodate the approach other MA take. Also keep in mind that at 80 years old, BJJ may not be as effective as it was when you were 25.

- Nexus

[Ryu]

I like them both.
But I guess I consider myself prodominently a grappler. That being said, there is merit in being able to throw a guy onto the ground and G&P from there without necessarily going down there with him.
Happens all the time in NHB too.

Ryu




"One who takes pride in shallow knowledge or understanding is like a monkey who delights in adorning itself with garbage."

[LEGEND]

nexus...i would have to say bjj is very effective primarily it's a leverage art like tai chi.

A

[Archangel]

Many fighters from Muay Thai, Boxing, Kickboxing, Kyokoshin Kai readily admit that their art is incomplete and learn groundfighting. I don't see why it's so difficult for alot of Kung Fu fighters to humble themselves and do the same.

[gfhegel21]

justa man:

Go to BJJ.org and poke around there; there are some top notch instructors both in NY/NJ and Florida. In particular, in the NYC area (including NJ) look for Renzo Gracie's school; they have a very good reputation.