Page 1 of 9 123 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 122

Thread: Any Christian Martial Arts Schools?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    OHIO
    Posts
    182

    Question Any Christian Martial Arts Schools?

    If you have read my latest thread on FeemonOng's Saved Formula's you knowmthat I love the Southern Sytems of the Martial Arts....but stopped practicing because of the religious ties that cannot be seperated in the Traditional Schools...where honor is paid to Chinese Deities and Past Masters.

    Does anyone know of a School in Northeast Ohio where one can learn the Martial Arts without the Buddhist and other religious Ceremonies, ties and disguised "worship" of spirits .

    I am a born-again believer...and contrary to one of my first question to my first teacher as to whether I could obtain a Black Sash ( 10 years ) WITHOUT compromising my strict conservative christian faith...I found out he mislead me ( probabley out of ignorance) and there WERE many, many Statues, Occult Symbols and Buddhist practices the higher you advanced.

    I am NOT trying to push my beliefs down anyones throat....but If anyone knows of a School where the teacher is a born-again christian that would be the Ultimate!!!!! Even if the teacher is neutral...but is aware of the Occult Practices that go along with many Styles, and leaves them out of training....That is for me!

    Thanks in advance....and I hope I didnt offend anyone

    JD
    "It's not WHO'S right...its WHAT'S right" Truth Comes from many Sources
    so try and disregard WHO is saying it..and explore if WHAT is being said has any Truth to It.
    [

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Davis, CA
    Posts
    236
    I'll bite... I hope you can reconcile kung fu within your beliefs, as I feel they are not quite as conflicting as you think. Allow me to try to persuade you.

    "Occult" is not the right word here. I would take some offense to that, but it's thrown around so freely by some people that I'm not surprised to see its misuse anymore. The truth is that even if kung fu were an inherently religious practice, to call Eastern religions "occult" is incorrect.

    The only practices I recall from my schools were entirely non-religious. We were never taught to believe in any ancient gods or to worship spirits. We saluted each other, a gesture that has nothing to do with religion. At my first school, we also saluted the Sun Toi, to honor the memory of lineage. It's not worshiping anything supernatural, but just being mindful of them and their hardships, kind of like placing flowers on a grave. It was a salute that took about a second, then we got right to practicing.

    I see nothing religious there. Most schools I've been to don't even have the Sun Toi. We salute each other and perhaps a photo of our grandteacher. Think of it like saluting the flag. I've never learned the slightest bit about religion or spiritual practice while at a kung fu school. Well, sometimes Gene would give us a mini-lecture while we sat in horse stance, and those covered a lot of topics, so he probably talked about it. His purpose was to inform us of the history, not convert us to anything. What I'm trying to say is that no one ever tried to make me into a Buddhist or forced me practice Buddhism.

    I personally do not think you would compromise your religious practices by practicing a martial art unless the only schools in your area actually teach the worship of gods and spirits. I've never seen it, but I suppose it's possible. One of my teachers today is super-traditional, and we practice outside on a University campus. No trappings, just a salute and on to horse stance.

    Good luck.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    OHIO
    Posts
    182
    I appreciate your dialogue Ravenshaw.
    It was my hope to be able to voice my opinion on this touchy topic and everyones stay civil.

    Here are some pic's to look at...if you look close they are laden with religious and occult ( the word simply means "hidden") images.

    http://www.fotosearch.com/results.as...searchtype=sss







    http://www.threeq.com/pages/symbols/yingyang.htm


    I rest my case..

    JD
    "It's not WHO'S right...its WHAT'S right" Truth Comes from many Sources
    so try and disregard WHO is saying it..and explore if WHAT is being said has any Truth to It.
    [

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,432
    Like a lot of fundamentalists (my father included) it seems like you are making a mountain out of a mole hill.

    I've gone to karate classes where the Muslim students won't bow in to class because they think it's some sort of religious practice. (When really it's just a gesture of respect).

    If you're really worried, why don't you just study from some Communist PRC teacher because they got rid of religion under Communism, so you should be safe there.

    Anyways, why don't you just taking boxing or BJJ or something if you're so worried?
    Last edited by lunghushan; 01-16-2007 at 08:29 PM.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Boca Raton, FL
    Posts
    2,342
    I have heard this from people entering our school before when asking about the alter with Kwan Gung (General Kwan). They ask do you have to bow to that? My answer is that has nothing to do with you, just come and practise kung fu.

    I am catholic and I jon heung/burn incense everytime I am at class. It is only a means of paying respect to the elders and has nothing to do with religion. It has more to do with chinese culture.

    My advice if your looking for kung fu suck it up and just take the classes, in most legit schools nothing will be asked of you outside of the possible salaute to your sifu or fellow classmates, which is more of a social thing like a handshake.

    Otherwise, get a longsword, mace or morning star and follow a style from the ancient crusades. If you want to learn a eastern art you must be willing to at least respect some of their traditions, most of which have nothing to do with religion.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,432
    And there ARE Christian MA schools around. Like in Seattle there's a Christian Aikido school. http://www.christianaikido.org/

    There's probably one in your area, and you just don't know about it.

  7. #7
    I have to 100% agree with lungshushan. And at the risk of starting the flame war here, I'm going to have to say that isn't it strange that while they spend so much time trying to cast down the "occult" ideals of others and claiming that they cannot find the peace they want, all the while they are the ones actually starting up the mess?

    I can't count how many times I've been minding my own business practicing in my yard, a park, on the beach or wherever and then only to be interrupted by some bible thumper trying to tell me I'm the embodyment of Satan and that meditation leads to the devils influence...

    By the way, throwing around the word Occult IS offensive. Know why? Because everytime another religious extremist comes out throwing it around they are using it with venom in their intent. Kinda like your little link you posted there.

    By the way what do you have against paying honor to those past? So what if people honor Buddha or Guan Yu. Isn't that the same exact thing you are doing with Jesus?

    Oh that link is full of it too...you want to know the light in Satan, he was once an angle...oh and about God and evil...didn't he once flood the entire planet??? Oh and didn't he sorta admit that it was just a tad wrong when he vowed to never do such an act again?

    I'm not trying to bash religion, but its not exactly without its screw-ups either.

    I'm not going to get into a religious battle now because its not worth my time. But seriously you are digging deep into something that you don't even have to acknowledge. But at the same time you come here claiming to be finding a path of non-involvement and neutrality in spreading you own view, you slam it straight out bashing what others here might think with such a careless link...

    Hmmmm...there was a time when Christians believed in reincarnation....

    There might be a lot of schools that have a dragon scroll or a statue of Guan Yu...does that mean you have to acknowledge it? No most of the time its just there for decoration anyways.

    Honestly if you are that worked up about something so trivial then you might just be better off in a boxing gym. Simple truth is you aren't going to learn anything anyways if you keep trying to filter it through your stacked up screen...

    Just take the lessons as they come and if you don't like something just don't do it...you will see there isn't so much conflict as you think.

    By the way there is nothing "touchy" about this topic....most of us go on throughout our daily training and think nothing of it...its only a select few that come along and can't seem to make peace with their own surroundings.

    I'm sorry if I have to much aggression in this post...but after being raised with native american tradition and shamanism, studying into wican and other euro based beliefs then eventually finding my way to Chinese ideals, I have been spit on, bashed and belittled just a bit too much to give much ground to the conservative mainstream religious banter that comes out in America so often...

    And before anyone tries to say it, yes I do plan to live in Asia, actually I already did in Japan for 4 years and I will be going back...

    My first Sifu who I respect very much was also a firm Christian. He never had any shame in his beliefs but at the same time he never once attempted to hold his to a higher pedastal than those of his students...He could see the value that was present in each's beliefs and the place it had in our own lives. Not once did he attempt to sway us in any one direction but rather presented all he could and allowed us to find our way, only directed us forward in the way that we ourselves so chose...They are out there, but you are going to have to accept that there will be differences and you must live with that. Its a small world and its only getting smaller...
    Last edited by ironmantis3; 01-16-2007 at 09:18 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,432
    Bottomline it isn't worth trying to argue about it. At least Seattle isn't in the Bible Belt. Although there is a huge Christian church right behind my house. (Which, ironically, is about 90% Asian in terms of people who go there).

    Anyways, JDK, Here's the Christian MA network ... 9 schools in Ohio.

    http://www.agapy.com/cma/directory.html

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,432
    Quote Originally Posted by ironmantis3 View Post
    claiming that they cannot find the peace they want, all the while they are the ones actually starting up the mess?
    Don't even get me started. My dad won't talk to me because:

    a) I went over there, just to visit.
    b) He starts on about the Bible and Christian banter and about how I'll go to hell if I'm not a Christian.
    c) I try to pacify him by just listening for a while, but he keeps getting on me and on me, so finally I ask him what proof he has of anything in the Bible.
    d) We argue a bit, and I make the case that I have no idea if any of it is true because it's just a book.
    e) Now he won't talk to me. Because I 'insulted' his religion. First off, I never mentioned religion, HE mentioned it, and banged it over my head for about 45 minutes before I even responded. Then I just said that I (I, me, not him) have no proof anything in the Bible is true.

    Fundies are IMHO a curse on the world.

    If they would just mind their own business, who cares what they practice? At least the Asian Christians that I know are more into just doing their own thing. Maybe they've had enough persecution in China and wherever they are from, so they realize that being able to practice their religion in peace is good enough without trying to convert the entire world.

  10. #10
    I guess you are right Lung and I realise I probably shot my mouth...errr...fingers off in that post so I apologize.

    Its just that the thing with symbolism....symbols only have meaning when given...otherwise they are just innate shapes and objects...its all in the eyes of the beholder so to say without sounding too cheesy I hope...

    I just don't understand why people worry about such small issues when there are so many real issues plaguing the world right now...

    Anyways good luck in your search JDK, it seems you have some places to start looking now.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,432
    Quote Originally Posted by ironmantis3 View Post
    I guess you are right Lung and I realise I probably shot my mouth...errr...fingers off in that post so I apologize.

    Its just that the thing with symbolism....symbols only have meaning when given...otherwise they are just innate shapes and objects...its all in the eyes of the beholder so to say without sounding too cheesy I hope...

    I just don't understand why people worry about such small issues when there are so many real issues plaguing the world right now...

    Anyways good luck in your search JDK, it seems you have some places to start looking now.
    People can't worry about the big issues, I guess, because they're too big.

    Anyways, like I always told my mom, if she really believed in Christianity, and if she were firm in her faith, then what does she care if anybody else believes or not?

    If you are a firm Christian (and this is 12 years of Sunday School talking), you should be able to walk through the valley of the shadows of death and FEAR NO EVIL. You should be able to get your Black Sash without worrying about the General Kwan statue.

    Anyways, I was extremely religiously persecuted by my family since I was around 13 or so and decided not to get confirmed. If it wasn't for my grandparents stepping in it would have been a hard time.

    If there's one thing I can't stand it's religious persecution. And the people that are doing the persecuting are usually religious people.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Fort Lewis, WA
    Posts
    175
    Quote Originally Posted by JDK View Post
    ...but stopped practicing because of the religious ties that cannot be seperated in the Traditional Schools...where honor is paid to Chinese Deities and Past Masters.
    Then study someplace else. A boxing or wrestling gym comes immediately to mind...

    Does anyone know of a School in Northeast Ohio where one can learn the Martial Arts without the Buddhist and other religious Ceremonies, ties and disguised "worship" of spirits .
    That's where the hidden venom of a convert starts seeping through... "Disguised 'worship' of spirits?" Please. That's the kind of evangelical, pseudo-superiority complex that so many people with your religious orientation use to put people off.

    I am a born-again believer
    Goodie for you. I doubt anyone cares as much as you do about that...

    ...and contrary to one of my first question to my first teacher as to whether I could obtain a Black Sash ( 10 years ) WITHOUT compromising my strict conservative christian faith...I found out he mislead me ( probabley out of ignorance) and there WERE many, many Statues, Occult Symbols and Buddhist practices the higher you advanced.
    The choice of phrasing, the choice of wording, all points to your intolerance, all while you demand tolerance of your own beliefs. Typical dual values...

    I am NOT trying to push my beliefs down anyones throat
    No, you are, in a passive-aggressive way. You want to study a fighting art of Chinese origin, complete with the religious influences that Chinese history has contributed, but you want it all on your terms, as if you have a right to make that demand... Take it for what it is, complete with all the "extras," or find something else.

    ....but If anyone knows of a School where the teacher is a born-again christian that would be the Ultimate!!!!! Even if the teacher is neutral...but is aware of the Occult Practices that go along with many Styles, and leaves them out of training....That is for me!
    They aren't "occult." The term certainly does mean "hidden," but the word communicates far more than that simplistic definition. And you know that. It's akin to referring to all non-Christians as "pagans."

    You can't just pick and choose, no matter what you may think... It's like picking and choosing what parts of your religion you want to obey (e.g. Christian prohibition against eating pork, compelling regular fasting, etc., which are common tidbits that modern American Christians "explain away" as if they no longer apply because they are inconvenient...). Either do it, or do something else. Don't water down the cultural and historical heritage of something in order to contaminate it with your religious perspective.

    Otherwise, good luck.
    Matt Stone

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Fort Lewis, WA
    Posts
    175
    Quote Originally Posted by lunghushan View Post
    Fundies are IMHO a curse on the world.
    "Fundies" rhymes with "undies" and we all know what they're both full of, don't we?

    Matt Stone

  14. #14
    Sorry if I offended anyone...ut pleae remember my signature line..
    Its not WHOSE right....Its WHAT is right!
    Yeah lung kinda like this right here....

    Man I don't get how anyone in their right mind can honestly think that they have the ultimate undeniable truth...why can't people just realise that they have no idea what is going on and as much as they might want something to be, it is just a belief until the day we die and know for certain...

    It in truth has nothing to do with WHAT is right....WHAT is a matter of personal perspective and there isn't a soul on this planet that has right to say who's WHAT is right and who's WHAT is wrong...that is just delusional...

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Seattle, WA
    Posts
    1,432
    Quote Originally Posted by ironmantis3 View Post
    Yeah lung kinda like this right here....

    Man I don't get how anyone in their right mind can honestly think that they have the ultimate undeniable truth...why can't people just realise that they have no idea what is going on and as much as they might want something to be, it is just a belief until the day we die and know for certain...

    It in truth has nothing to do with WHAT is right....WHAT is a matter of personal perspective and there isn't a soul on this planet that has right to say who's WHAT is right and who's WHAT is wrong...that is just delusional...
    Yeah, honestly, all I ever wanted to do with my dad was talk about the Bible. Theology and symbolism and stuff. He never wanted to do it, and that really turned me off to the entire thing because it was like he was just a zombie.

    So I kindof didn't deal with my dad and that for a while, but as he gets older, he is just getting WAY more religious, so I wanted to bounce a few ideas off of him about symbology and stuff, but he really wouldn't have it.

    Personally, I don't have a problem with Christians, or any religion, unless they're trying to ram their religion down other people's throats. But what I really don't understand, is HOW they are SO SURE that what they believe is correct? That is what I don't understand.

    I mean, my dad is like so sure that there's no doubt, no doubt whatsoever, but he won't look at a particular part of the Bible (take any part), and look at the symbology or anything.

    Very strange. But anyways, there's a LOT of Christians in the U.S. and many Christian MA schools, so for those people interested, there are options.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •