the trace of SLT evolution

[Hendrik]

Can we know the evolution of Siu Lin Tau the set?

Yes, by observing the snake and crane section of the Siu Lin Tau across lineages we can see a trace.



first,
Take a look at the snake reel section of these lineages. from YKS to Ku Lo to Chan wah shun to Snake Crane , which is the older WCK lineages of the pre 1900.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6Ap3Hgfbqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXWjKPYIts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj5OElGZCgU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo

They all shows a snake reel section which is core in the sup jee sau type .( the section before the so called Sam Bai fut 0r Crane section.)

Ku Lo is doing the crane before snake, but both snake and crane are there. the sup jee sau is there. the five fingers trace taiji circle is there.





Now take a look at the snake reel section before the sam bai fut section of the Yip Man lineage including the TWC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7M_W35NyYQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6UUx...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUr10LZAzh0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crmGYEvLVcw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJZ9dXiLM7s


So, from the above one sees GM Yip Man's signature in evolution.

the snake reel section of Yip Man lineage is evolved from the Chan Wah, YKS, Ku Lo type of Sup Jee Sau based snake reel to a single huen sau.






From the above we know, the Huen sau type is a post 1900 Yip Man evolution and
as for the 1800 or pre 1900 version of WCK there always a sup jee sau type of core.

Thus, if one freeze time today and take a look at one's SLT, one can use this snake reel section to see how old is type of SLT. To the minimum the pre or post 1900.

if this snake section is lost totally, then the slt is not complete. as we know, even in Ko Lu which is not practicing set. Leung Jan still keep the snake reel and crane withstand as evident in GM Fung's clip.

[Wayfaring]

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[Hendrik]

Add this pao fa lien siu Lin tau to the collection. see for yourself the snake reel and Crane withstand section. And the snake reel signature in pao fa Lin slt.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w8ErY0gfLgY

[Grumblegeezer]

The series of hand movements, sometimes referred to as "wagging fingers" that is omitted from the opening sequence of Siu Nim Tau in Yip Man Wing Chun is not missing from the system, it is just held back until Biu Tze:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NW1_Bmbmkg

Also, it is worth noting that these movements were included in the Siu Nim Tau as taught by Grandmaster Yip in his earlier years in Fatshan, and are still included in SNT by his surviving students there such as Lun Kai. It is well known that during his later Hong Kong period, Grandmaster Yip trimmed some sequences from the forms. Whether this was a positive contribution or not, I'll leave for others to debate. I'll only note that more is not always better. Wing Chun is exceptional largely because of it's efficiency and simplicity both in form and application.

[Hendrik]

The series of hand movements, sometimes referred to as "wagging fingers" that is omitted from the opening sequence of Siu Nim Tau in Yip Man Wing Chun is not missing from the system, it is just held back until Biu Tze:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9NW1_Bmbmkg

Also, it is worth noting that these movements were included in the Siu Nim Tau as taught by Grandmaster Yip in his earlier years in Fatshan, and are still included in SNT by his surviving students there such as Lun Kai.

It is well known that during his later Hong Kong period, Grandmaster Yip trimmed some sequences from the forms. Whether this was a positive contribution or not, I'll leave for others to debate.

I'll only note that more is not always better. Wing Chun is exceptional largely because of it's efficiency and simplicity both in form and application.

We respect different evolution or personal editing of different lineage so there is nothing wrong with it.

We know from the above the different signatures and time stamp.

We like it or not, we know today the WCK time stamp pre 1900 core in the snake reel crane withstand. We know different lineages signatures.

[Hendrik]

The following are two excellent clips by sifu Sergio on Weng Chun .

Saam bai fat
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rWua9JLHPk

Sup Yat Sao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zghvcIZOZQM


For me, using the snake reel crane withstand as reference, these two sets above are crane withstand core sets. And doing the crane withstand in a white crane fujian way.
So, these are not the same type of art with wing Chun.

Also, this is matching to the red boat era history where different arts co exist in the red boat, and lee man mau is doing white crane of fujian.

[Hendrik]

a lineage of Cho family SLT set

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLCTuRE4zC0


another lieage of Cho family SLT set

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRbpfs31N20

[ccwayne]

Can we know the evolution of Siu Lin Tau the set?

Yes, by observing the snake and crane section of the Siu Lin Tau across lineages we can see a trace.



first,
Take a look at the snake reel section of these lineages. from YKS to Ku Lo to Chan wah shun to Snake Crane , which is the older WCK lineages of the pre 1900.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6Ap3Hgfbqs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmXWjKPYIts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tj5OElGZCgU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_IEej1FpJwo

They all shows a snake reel section which is core in the sup jee sau type .( the section before the so called Sam Bai fut 0r Crane section.)

Ku Lo is doing the crane before snake, but both snake and crane are there. the sup jee sau is there. the five fingers trace taiji circle is there.





Now take a look at the snake reel section before the sam bai fut section of the Yip Man lineage including the TWC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I7M_W35NyYQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6UUx...eature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jUr10LZAzh0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crmGYEvLVcw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJZ9dXiLM7s


So, from the above one sees GM Yip Man's signature in evolution.

the snake reel section of Yip Man lineage is evolved from the Chan Wah, YKS, Ku Lo type of Sup Jee Sau based snake reel to a single huen sau.






From the above we know, the Huen sau type is a post 1900 Yip Man evolution and
as for the 1800 or pre 1900 version of WCK there always a sup jee sau type of core.

Thus, if one freeze time today and take a look at one's SLT, one can use this snake reel section to see how old is type of SLT. To the minimum the pre or post 1900.

if this snake section is lost totally, then the slt is not complete. as we know, even in Ko Lu which is not practicing set. Leung Jan still keep the snake reel and crane withstand as evident in GM Fung's clip.

Snake Crane Wing Chun has a 'Lim Tau Song', a poem , and the first five statements describ the whole set of SCWC SLT form playing, and the last statement tells why to develop SCWC


念頭歌
白鶴戲水蛇歸洞 飛麟九轉表掌通 蛇鶴爭揮堵勁融
鶴足三提翼四功 白鶴摺翼登天際 蛇鶴能制逆宗童

Beginning parts in all SCWC forms（樁頭）: 白鶴戲水蛇歸洞 飛麟九轉表掌通

起式====雙手提起作白鶴喝水隨作毒蛇轉首跟五指扣拿作鶴足拿物隨即貼逼出抽歸脥隨將膝微屈立展拑 羊馬(含胸拔背收肚 攤腰) 隨即作雙蛇下洞再作絞手收拳隨將左拳打出由拳變掌作毒蛇九轉(右與左同) 以上皆為拳之起式

The above description（樁頭） in Chinese is the part of the description of the SLT in SCWC Law Tiu Wen written notes recorded in Guangxu sixteen years(1890). It is not today Chinese written style, and it clearly indicates the imitations of the Snake movement and the crane movements in the SCWC SLT.

http://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=140907212685746

You can also watch the video above and enjoy the first two statements described in the Lim Tau Song(poem) in the video. The rest of the other three statements describ more about the crane motions, and I cannot disclose here any more. Just to let you know Snake and Crane movement built in SLT before 1900.

[Hendrik]

Wayne,

Thanks 1000 and appreciate you disclose your lineage's treasure.

This is very valuable for those who did serious WCK research. We now have solid data points from different direction to study WCK 1850.


As we can see , the classical Chinese is very specific with depth. And wck1850 is not an art for illiterate people as some like to believe. The people who lead the 1850 uprising are elite group of people who challenge the emperor officials and defeat them. They are not just some no body.

[CFT]

The 'Nim Tau Song' is composed in the classical style, but I don't see that the description of the forms opening (jong tau) is in classical Chinese. Seems pretty contempory to me.

[Hendrik]

The 'Nim Tau Song' is composed in the classical style, but I don't see that the description of the forms opening (jong tau) is in classical Chinese. Seems pretty contempory to me.

Side topic.

If I am correct, Wayne's ancestor of Lo family is a 貢生。my ancetors , the Cho family is a 武擧family for generation.

[ccwayne]

Side topic.

If I am correct, Wayne's ancestor of Lo family is a 貢生。my ancetors , the Cho family is a 武擧family for generation.

I think so, and maybe there is a '武狀元' in different lineages in different areas. After the fire of Southern Shaolin, the monks escaped to different areas of China. After the collapse of the TaiPingHeavenly Kingdom and the fire of '瓊花會館', the members of the RedBoat Opera hid and escaped to the different parts of South East Asia, of course including China. Yip Kam and BandChong Wing Chun（正旦金） are the typical ones. Fung Siu Ching, aged 70, returned to China from 南洋, after the collapse of Qing Dynasty, to teach Yuen Kay San(YKS). YOu can see there should be a lot of small lineages of WC scattered in the different areas in the South East Asia. Modern Thai boxing, you see their puching, kicking and elbow techniques, have you related them to WC punching, kicking and elbow techniques.

Different people learning the same skill may have different interpretation, understanding and performing because they are not the same person. That's why I understand why there are some many tributaries in WC big family, just like the article I wrote in Chinese 'The evolution of the Wing Chun in the last sixties' in 'New Martial Hero' magazine.

I know 古財華 BandChong Wing Chun in the video above. He knows us very well, and 正旦金 may be the accent in their place. What I predict 正旦金 is 正旦錦. 正引花旦-->正旦 錦-->金

申錦（大花面錦）is a 武生，so 正旦金 is not 大花面錦 ， we are from different persons, and different lineages formed.

[Hendrik]

Wayne,

Thanks for your view.

[FongSung]

I know 古財華 BandChong Wing Chun in the video above. He knows us very well, and 正旦金 may be the accent in their place. What I predict 正旦金 is 正旦錦. 正引花旦-->正旦 錦-->金

申錦（大花面錦）is a 武生，so 正旦金 is not 大花面錦 ， we are from different persons, and different lineages formed.

Hi ccwayne some "speculate" that 正旦金 & 大花面錦 are one and the same as he changed roles when he got older. As there wasmore than one red (Opera) boat they could still be different people.

Ku Choi Wah (古財華) Sifu mentioned your group to me a few time over the last couple of years. Actually he was in HK earlier this month and is currently celebrating CNY and paying his respects to the ancestors in Nga Wu, Poon Yee with the Cho Family.
Unfortunately I could not make it this year.

[ccwayne]

Hi ccwayne some "speculate" that 正旦金 & 大花面錦 are one and the same as he changed roles when he got older. As there wasmore than one red (Opera) boat they could still be different people.

Ku Choi Wah (古財華) Sifu mentioned your group to me a few time over the last couple of years. Actually he was in HK earlier this month and is currently celebrating CNY and paying his respects to the ancestors in Nga Wu, Poon Yee with the Cho Family.
Unfortunately I could not make it this year.

I am not going to speculate whether 正旦金 & 大花面錦 the same person or not. Also, 花旦 is 花旦, and not easy to change the role to 大花面. There should be more than one 花旦and more than one 大花面 in the RedBoat. Also, there should be more RedBoat members they know the WC skills. After the collapse of Tai Ping Heavenly Kingdom, they escaped from persecution to different areas in the South East Asia. In the place where they stay, they might teach the people there and to carry forward the skills there. After a certain period, a lineage is formed.

Going back to the fire of Southern Shaolin, the monks escaped and scatterd in the Southern, Western and Northern parts of the China. Some lineages are formed where the monks stayed. The second carrying forward of the WC is from the RedBoad, the places they escaped from persecution extended to the South East Asia. WC becomes a very very big family.

I need to thank Sifu Ku to mention the Snake Crane Wing Chun to you in the last few years. The last time I met him, just seated beside me, in the dinner organised by 'New Martial Hero'(Italy) one year ago.