Spine alignment while doing martial arts/working out

[SavvySavage]

Some internal martial artists teach their students to tuck the pelvis under which straightens the lumbar(low back) spine. This keeps force from dissipating out of a tensed low back. The tucking of the tailbone opens up the whole spoke creating space in between the vertebra allowing for a healthier spine. That's what I've heard from some teachers.

Then there's the other side of the coin. The best martial artists I've met never talked about tucking the tailbone. They've said to keep the back straight meaning don't stick your butt out and keep your center of gravity over the hips.

What do you guys think about this? Pictures of power lifters always show them adhering to the natural curves of the spine.

Is there a certain alignment used in forms and then back to natural during partner drills and sparring?

[Zenshiite]

IMO, there's sometimes a tendency for students of the IMA and perhaps some teachers that put too much emphasis on the tailbone tuck, especially in modern times, that ends up exacerbating an already problematic area in people. Ultimately the lumbar spine ends up weakened.

Most people, even when they work tough jobs, end up spending more time sitting down than ever before. Office jobs require sitting, truck driving requires sitting, some factory jobs require sitting, and everyone comes home from work, plops down on the couch and turns on the TV or sits down in from of a home computer. The lumbar spine ends up "open" a whole hell of a lot more than it used to.

I'm not saying abandon the advice, but temper it with understanding what you are already doing with your body every day if you are sitting down a lot. Everyone would benefit from doing back bridges to strengthen the muscles in the back and help open the anterior chain with active stretching and by the same token you can stretch the posterior chain and strengthen the anterior chain by doing L-sit static holds.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Your body tends to find the most natural and effective way to do things but that is not always the BEST way in terms of health.
If you want to see good structure look at weight lifters, they spend their time lifting and moving weights that the average person never even dreams of and they do it regularly and many do it for decades.
Sure at times you MAY see the odd screw up but the vast majority of times you see correct structure and aligment for moving heavy weights and exerting some serious force in virtually all planes of movement.
Same thing for high level athletes in track events, they run, they jump the lift and they throw and do it the best way possible.

[Fighting Eagle]

Here's a great article on those tight lower back muscles that causes the butt to stick out.

I've always trained to try and keep the butt tucked in when training my stances.

http://www.biokineticspt.com/blog/un...-syndrome.html
By Paul Kochoa, PT, DPT, CCI, CGFI

Sitting. We all do it. But sitting too long can cause problems. One of them is lower crossed syndrome. It’s analogous to the upper crossed syndrome that I mentioned in my previous post. Basically it’s an imbalance of tight and weak structures around the pelvis, hips and lower back. This imbalance can cause pain and dysfunction and an over arching of the lower back.

Lower crossed syndrome is a combination of weak glutes, weak abdominals, tight hip flexors and a tight lower back. This sets up a anterior tilt of the pelvis that puts excessive stress on the low back. Here’s the tilt:



Too much of this tilt creates a bad position for the pelvis and low back. It puts too much torque on the back and the imbalance of the muscles creates a poor environment to properly stabilize the core. It can affect your standing posture and even affect your golf game. Here’s an example:



The golfer on the left is exhibiting an S-Posture. The golfer on the right is in a more neutral posture. Like the C-Posture, the S-Posture can be detrimental to your back and golf swing. The increased curvature in the lower back causes the abdominal muscle to relax, deactivating the core muscles. The lack of core stability can cause a loss of posture or reverse spine angle during the backswing. With the core off, all that torque is transmitted straight to the back and then you know what THAT means — PAIN.

To correct this problem, you basically have to stretch the tight structures and strengthen the weak ones; and then train the core to work. A physiotherapist can help direct you on where to start.

One thing that you can try is bridging with leg extension. This exercise will strengthen the hips, glutes and core. Here’s a video of Dr. Greg Rose from the Titleist Performance Institute performing the bridge with leg extension exercise: VIDEO.

The key with this exercise is to maintain the level hips when you extend one leg. With one leg kicking out, the pelvis wants to rotate and drop. Using your hip muscles, you have to contract strongly to control this rotation and stabilize your pelvis.

[YouKnowWho]

Whether you should tuck or un-tuck depends on your body function.

When you are

- behind your opponent, "tucking the tailbone" can bounce your opponent off the ground (embrace).

http://img849.imageshack.us/img849/1605/embrace1.jpg

- in front of your opponent, "un-tucking the tailbone" can also bounce your opponent off the ground (bowing throw).

http://img818.imageshack.us/img818/7103/bowing11.jpg

When you try to lift something "heavy", always try to lift from a low horse stance and straight your legs into a high horse stance. Never try to bend forward and then bend backward.

When you train solo, it's always good to keep your head and body in a perfect straight line.

http://img860.imageshack.us/img860/580/oldpic211.jpg

[Fa Xing]

Spinal alignment is key to proper posture, health, and transfer of force during any athletic movement. At some point in the past people began teaching stupid postures to hold to improve their power which obviously does not work, but in the last 25 years, the sports community (exercise physiologists, sports chiropractors, strength coaches, and physical therapists) have discovered proper ways to develop the necessary musculoskeletal biomechanics in order to move without destroying the body.

Martial artists the world over could benefit a great deal from the advances in biomechanics instead of listening to just how it's always been done.

FE, from my experience both of those pictures are incorrect and that it should be somewhere in between the two, but too be honest I don't train golfers. Plus you really can't apply golfing to martial arts, the vectors are different.

[WingChunABQ]

Here's a great article on those tight lower back muscles that causes the butt to stick out.

I've always trained to try and keep the butt tucked in when training my stances.

http://www.biokineticspt.com/blog/un...-syndrome.html
By Paul Kochoa, PT, DPT, CCI, CGFI

Sitting. We all do it. But sitting too long can cause problems. One of them is lower crossed syndrome. It’s analogous to the upper crossed syndrome that I mentioned in my previous post. Basically it’s an imbalance of tight and weak structures around the pelvis, hips and lower back. This imbalance can cause pain and dysfunction and an over arching of the lower back.

Lower crossed syndrome is a combination of weak glutes, weak abdominals, tight hip flexors and a tight lower back. This sets up a anterior tilt of the pelvis that puts excessive stress on the low back. Here’s the tilt:



Too much of this tilt creates a bad position for the pelvis and low back. It puts too much torque on the back and the imbalance of the muscles creates a poor environment to properly stabilize the core. It can affect your standing posture and even affect your golf game. Here’s an example:



The golfer on the left is exhibiting an S-Posture. The golfer on the right is in a more neutral posture. Like the C-Posture, the S-Posture can be detrimental to your back and golf swing. The increased curvature in the lower back causes the abdominal muscle to relax, deactivating the core muscles. The lack of core stability can cause a loss of posture or reverse spine angle during the backswing. With the core off, all that torque is transmitted straight to the back and then you know what THAT means — PAIN.

To correct this problem, you basically have to stretch the tight structures and strengthen the weak ones; and then train the core to work. A physiotherapist can help direct you on where to start.

One thing that you can try is bridging with leg extension. This exercise will strengthen the hips, glutes and core. Here’s a video of Dr. Greg Rose from the Titleist Performance Institute performing the bridge with leg extension exercise: VIDEO.

The key with this exercise is to maintain the level hips when you extend one leg. With one leg kicking out, the pelvis wants to rotate and drop. Using your hip muscles, you have to contract strongly to control this rotation and stabilize your pelvis.

I really appreciated these links. Thanks a lot!

In Wing Chun we are always taught to tuck the pelvis just enough to take some of the curve out of the lower back. I've heard many diverse explanations as to why we do it, from the purely Qi Gung ("it opens the qua") to the purely physical ("It stabilizes the core and helps transfer energy from your upper body to your legs and vice versa). I'm looking forward to looking more at those articles when I've got a little more time.

[JamesC]

I don't understand why people want to take something our body is made to do, and then mess with it. There's a reason the spine has a natural curve to it.

That makes 0 sense.

[SavvySavage]

I don't understand why people want to take something our body is made to do, and then mess with it. There's a reason the spine has a natural curve to it.

That makes 0 sense.

I'll say this about the tucking. I don't do it anymore but when I did I noticed it did add a little umph to pushing motiOns which is why I guess push hands people/styles stress it. I also noticed that it makes footwork/mobility terrible. Trying to hold your pelvis down and walk is hard. Running with your pelvis tucked will probably wreck your back.

There may be something to the tucking/untucking while doing certain techniques but I'm not a fan. My ming men point(du 4 in acupuncture) opens fine on its own without me manipulating it. The butt should not stick out and should not be too flat. It should be right in the middle and this should be accomplished without conscious tucking, imo

[Lee Chiang Po]

I have seen people in the work place suffer lower back pain when they have to stand for long periods of time. Women that work in laundries are told to place one foot on something to elevate it. Same with pressmen in printing companies. This pulls the butt in and pushes the front out. It takes the stress and pressure off the spine. When you stand all your weight tends to force downward and if the spine curls out down low it creates strain on the spine. Lots of guys tend to shove the butt out in an effort to pull the junk in so as to avoid kicks and such. Not at all good for the spine.

[FullPotentialMA]

The "tail bone tuck" is really a very subtle alignment, not a gross movement. Weight lifters do it at well. The tuck allows the lower body to be better connected with the upper body.
See http://www.fullpotentialma.com/power-generation-martial-arts-axis-spine-center-gamaku/ for a detailed explanation of the interaction of the martial artist's spine and their power generation and fighting abilities.