Food for thought

[David Jamieson]

what do you get when you type in zen?
how about classical weapons training?
martial medicine?

I think it needs to be recognized that Kung Fu is MORE than just a martial sport.
Why do people bother trying to stick it in that box. You want that? have some san da or san shou. There, you can now have Kung Fu as a sport.

Fact of the matter is that other martial arts just don't have as many avenues or limbs as Kung Fu does. get over it boxing, you have no weapons and meditation. boxing is still good. Get over it judo, you still never learned to throw a punch, and so on and so forth.

[SPJ]

I spent most of time in search of music video from the past and present on youtube.

I bookmark or tweet about them.

I also post them on facebook and google +

when I want to listen to the music

I may look them up easily on my facebook, google+ posts.

VEVO compiling some good clips of music videos from singers.

if only some one would do the same for kung fu clips.

or san shou clips

or styles of training clips

and call it

KEVO etc etc

http://www.youtube.com/user/LadyGagaVEVO?blend=4&ob=0

http://www.youtube.com/user/vevo?blend=1&ob=4

[sanjuro_ronin]

what do you get when you type in zen?
how about classical weapons training?
martial medicine?

I think it needs to be recognized that Kung Fu is MORE than just a martial sport.
Why do people bother trying to stick it in that box. You want that? have some san da or san shou. There, you can now have Kung Fu as a sport.

Fact of the matter is that other martial arts just don't have as many avenues or limbs as Kung Fu does. get over it boxing, you have no weapons and meditation. boxing is still good. Get over it judo, you still never learned to throw a punch, and so on and so forth.

The fact that the majority of the videos of a Martial art don't show ANY fighting says a lot dude.

[David Jamieson]

The fact that the majority of the videos of a Martial art don't show ANY fighting says a lot dude.

I knew how to fight before I took up Kung Fu and had been in more fights before taking up practice than after.

But if you type "san da training" or "san shou training" you'll see plenty of fighting. These being the sport fighting models for kung fu.

So, in context to what Kung Fu is, it doesn't say much really other than Kung Fu is not just boxing, or not just wrestling, or not just throwing etc etc.

so...anyway:
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...=kung+fu+sanda
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ung+fu+sanshou

and here's a little rbsd from teh kung fu fights search!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHiftWa3yOY

[SPJ]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hyseg...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaC1g...eature=related

wu lin da hui

entertainment first, entertainment in the middle and entertainment at last.

such is the life, too.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I knew how to fight before I took up Kung Fu and had been in more fights before taking up practice than after.

But if you type "san da training" or "san shou training" you'll see plenty of fighting. These being the sport fighting models for kung fu.

So, in context to what Kung Fu is, it doesn't say much really other than Kung Fu is not just boxing, or not just wrestling, or not just throwing etc etc.

so...anyway:
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...=kung+fu+sanda
http://www.youtube.com/results?searc...ung+fu+sanshou

and here's a little rbsd from teh kung fu fights search!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vHiftWa3yOY

Indeed, if you search for sanda/sanshou you will see fighting and what is sanda/sanshou?
Modern chinese "MMA".

I mention TCMA simply because this is a TCMA forum, but the issue is present in TJA ( of which the Okinawan ones get "mixed in with")

What we should be seeing when we type in wing chun or hung ga or white crane or praying mantis, is people fighting with those styles.

I was reading Kennedy's books again, the Training manual one and the Jing wu one, and in those manuals what you got was forms, yes, but applications and even strength training and it while even then there were writers lamenting the sad state of TCMA and how they had become "flowery fists", the main view was that MA are for fighting and one took up a MA because they wanted to use it to fight ( from money or military or whatever).

But I digress.

The simple fact is that what we SHOULD be seeing when we do a search is the chosen MA being used in a fight, good or bad is irrelevant, people should be fighting or training to fight.
We do NOT see that.
The thing is that people put up videos ( be them private or commercial) of what they think people want to see, what they think their MA is all about and that THOSE people putting up videos are NOT showing people fighting, that too speaks volumes.

[David Jamieson]

I don't discount the arts themselves because there has been no model built for them to compete and I don't hold it against any of them for not getting into mma which is indeed what san shou / san da is kind of.

My art may not be your art after all and I don't think there is any value in pressing various arts into a box. In my opinion, that's narrow minded and detrimental to the arts. If a Kung Fu student wants to compete and fight, he goes and does san shou. or whatever else he's interested in that offers that.

Quite simply some tcma are not suitable for sport model and where they are is where san shou answers the call.

We don't ask boxers to train kicking do we?
We don't ask Judoka to start punching and kicking do we?
We don't ask Kareteka to wrestle do we?
We don't ask wrestlers to punch and kick do we?
We don't ask MMA-ists to study classical weapons, medicine or meditation do we?

Why is it so important to force tcma into a framework that it doesn't really fit into or that diminishes the transformative aspects of it as a preference? If Kung Fu became just another ****genous pile of stuff, it would lose it's true value, it's unique offerings outside of the context of merely fighting.

One doesn't need to learn anything to have a fight or flight response after all.
Training is just training and at my age, I prefer training to be around healthful exercises and fitness regimens thet are found within the arts I study.

I'm not interested in collecting injuries from training. lol. I think that's kind of stupid quite frankly and see no merit in it for the over 35 set and those guys that are doing that are just kidding themselves or chasing lost youth or some other mental construct that isn't realistic.

Besides, even if a Kung Fu guy takes his gun to town, he'll get derided for it and if he succeeds or fails, it will not be Kung Fu in anyone's eyes.

Bottom line, if you don't like TCMAs, don't do them, don't participate in their methods and go do what you think is better. the choice is certainly there and there is no one stopping anyone from doing that.

I dig the Kung fu I have and practice and am not in the least bit interested in fighting anyone at all. I train in the event that maybe I might have to fight someone some day and some training is better than none in my opinion, but no training negates any threat, ever.

[sanjuro_ronin]

We don't ask boxers to train kicking do we?
We don't ask Judoka to start punching and kicking do we?
We don't ask Kareteka to wrestle do we?
We don't ask wrestlers to punch and kick do we?
We don't ask MMA-ists to study classical weapons, medicine or meditation do we?

Nope, but we do "ask" them all to fight.
While it's great to state that kung fu is more than just fighting because over the decades we have add all this other crap to it that had very little (if anything) to do with its original form, none of that changes the fact that Martial Arts are about fighting first and foremost.

[David Jamieson]

Nope, but we do "ask" them all to fight.
While it's great to state that kung fu is more than just fighting because over the decades we have add all this other crap to it that had very little (if anything) to do with its original form, none of that changes the fact that Martial Arts are about fighting first and foremost.

Sure, but Kung Fu is not just martial art and is not about fighting first and foremost.

Kung Fu is literally "Time+Effort" and within it you will find fighting and indeed that can be the focus of your training no matter what. You can achieve Kung Fu in swordplay or marksmanship or boxing etc.

Kung Fu is also about cultivation of the better person within you. In my opinion it is unwise to do away with the transformative process that is inherent to the Practice towards achieving Kung Fu.

There is nothing stopping a Kung Fu practitioner from going and training to fight and fighting etc etc. I have no idea why people are so upset about it.

Kung Fu never "should" be what someone else thinks it should be. For one thing, there is more to Kung Fu than any individual mind can possibly learn, know and comprehend. There is no such thing as a person who knows everything there is to know about Kung Fu. That's just the way it is.

When I look at Kung Fu, I can look at forms, weapons play, solo practice, fighting, meditation, hard work out, light work out, and so on and so forth. It is almost limitless in it's offerings and yet has at it's core and idea about developing a human into a full and capable person.

to be a full and capable person through the practice of Kung Fu and using it's principles in daily life is much more descriptive of what Kung Fu is about. It is the fighting part that attracts young men to it though, I concede that. Young men like to fight and tussle. That's just the way.

But to demand that all the myriad styles fit into a box and do what someone thinks they "should" be? I disagree with that. If I want to just fight, then I won't take up Kung Fu.

If you want to fight competitively in a ring full on full blast etc etc, take up boxing. That's what I did. I took up Kung Fu to transform.

[SavvySavage]

I don't discount the arts themselves because there has been no model built for them to compete and I don't hold it against any of them for not getting into mma which is indeed what san shou / san da is kind of.

My art may not be your art after all and I don't think there is any value in pressing various arts into a box. In my opinion, that's narrow minded and detrimental to the arts. If a Kung Fu student wants to compete and fight, he goes and does san shou. or whatever else he's interested in that offers that.

Quite simply some tcma are not suitable for sport model and where they are is where san shou answers the call.

We don't ask boxers to train kicking do we?
We don't ask Judoka to start punching and kicking do we?
We don't ask Kareteka to wrestle do we?
We don't ask wrestlers to punch and kick do we?
We don't ask MMA-ists to study classical weapons, medicine or meditation do we?

Why is it so important to force tcma into a framework that it doesn't really fit into or that diminishes the transformative aspects of it as a preference? If Kung Fu became just another ****genous pile of stuff, it would lose it's true value, it's unique offerings outside of the context of merely fighting.

One doesn't need to learn anything to have a fight or flight response after all.
Training is just training and at my age, I prefer training to be around healthful exercises and fitness regimens thet are found within the arts I study.

I'm not interested in collecting injuries from training. lol. I think that's kind of stupid quite frankly and see no merit in it for the over 35 set and those guys that are doing that are just kidding themselves or chasing lost youth or some other mental construct that isn't realistic.

Besides, even if a Kung Fu guy takes his gun to town, he'll get derided for it and if he succeeds or fails, it will not be Kung Fu in anyone's eyes.

Bottom line, if you don't like TCMAs, don't do them, don't participate in their methods and go do what you think is better. the choice is certainly there and there is no one stopping anyone from doing that.

I dig the Kung fu I have and practice and am not in the least bit interested in fighting anyone at all. I train in the event that maybe I might have to fight someone some day and some training is better than none in my opinion, but no training negates any threat, ever.

Yeah, but David it now seems you are boxing those styles in. What if a muay thai guy went to acupuncture and meditated on his own? Meditating isn't that hard, honestly. Any style can have all of the aspects you listed. Muay thai probably has a ton of medicine to deal with injuries due to their hard training regimen. The point Sanjuro is making is that they have the fighting aspect too. And anything they don't have(meditation, medicine, etc) can be added in but they still have the fighting aspect. Gung fu has all of those things...and lacks a lot in the fighting aspects compared to fighting styles.

Judo has choke revivals. When someone gets choked out he gets revived by his partner if his partner has learned that aspect. This is what I call practical medicine. They have the medicine(choke revivals) and the fighting(actually choking each other). And if you read Jigoro Kano's book it's mostly about philosophy and becoming a whole better person.

[David Jamieson]

Yeah, but David it now seems you are boxing those styles in. What if a muay thai guy went to acupuncture and meditated on his own? Meditating isn't that hard, honestly. Any style can have all of the aspects you listed. Muay thai probably has a ton of medicine to deal with injuries due to their hard training regimen. The point Sanjuro is making is that they have the fighting aspect too. And anything they don't have(meditation, medicine, etc) can be added in but they still have the fighting aspect. Gung fu has all of those things...and lacks a lot in the fighting aspects compared to fighting styles.

Judo has choke revivals. When someone gets choked out he gets revived by his partner if his partner has learned that aspect. This is what I call practical medicine. They have the medicine(choke revivals) and the fighting(actually choking each other). And if you read Jigoro Kano's book it's mostly about philosophy and becoming a whole better person.

Here's where the head goes "pop"...

you can have Kung Fu in Muay Thai, or in Judo your Kung Fu can shine through, or even in boxing, one can have Kung Fu in boxing.

This is my point. It's not about semantics or pedantry.

[Ray Pina]

But if you type "san da training" or "san shou training" you'll see plenty of fighting. These being the sport fighting models for kung fu.

I don't think its fair for all of Kung Fu to ride the San Da wave.

Boxers box
Kick Boxers kick box
Judo guys do judo
BJJ guys do BJJ
MMA guys do MMA
San Da guys kick box with throws
Kung Fu does form

[David Jamieson]

I don't think its fair for all of Kung Fu to ride the San Da wave.

Boxers box
Kick Boxers kick box
Judo guys do judo
BJJ guys do BJJ
MMA guys do MMA
San Da guys kick box with throws
Kung Fu does form

Ray, all you're doing here is displaying a complete lack of understanding what Kung Fu is.

San Shou IS the venue for sportive combative aspect of Kung Fu.

Or would you enter the ring to box a guy with a sword?

lol

[Lucas]

i think what ray means is that the individuals who dont spar, fight, or train in that fashion ride on the coat tails of sanshou/sanda

he is right after all.

HOWEVER...he also always fails to give credit where credit is due. there are plenty of individuals that have put in a load of blood, sweat, and tears to develop strong martial skills with cma. some people like to act like their **** doesnt stink.

time and again its the same argument. when you point out cma people fighting mma with strong skills and solid records, it is not acknowledged. the people that ***** the loudest are the first to dissapear when those accusations are confronted with evidence and facts to the contrary.

some people only see in black and white and do not realize that most is grey. they deserve your pity.

[David Jamieson]

i think what ray means is that the individuals who dont spar, fight, or train in that fashion ride on the coat tails of sanshou/sanda

he is right after all.

HOWEVER...he also always fails to give credit where credit is due. there are plenty of individuals that have put in a load of blood, sweat, and tears to develop strong martial skills with cma. some people like to act like their **** doesnt stink.

time and again its the same argument. when you point out cma people fighting mma with strong skills and solid records, it is not acknowledged. the people that ***** the loudest are the first to dissapear when those accusations are confronted with evidence and facts to the contrary.

some people only see in black and white and do not realize that most is grey. they deserve your pity.

I don't put the keys to my happiness in someone else's coat pocket.

I also don't accept redefinitions based on someone else's bitterness towards something perceived or real.

I enjoy my training, I don't ride on anyone's coattails and frankly, I don't think that many do. there's just as many people there for the t-shirt in mma gyms as anywhere else.

I think there is a lot of ego and crap talk in all martial arts. Less so when the player has refined himself somewhat and polished up a bit. IN any art.

What is there to prove anymore anyway? Nothing except the challenge to the the self as in "can I?" Well, yes you can, with practice you can do just about anything.

This whole thread is just more "Kung Fu is lacking because it's not like sport fighting". I don't agree with that on any level. Especially not judging by the people who come back round full circle to traditional martial arts to see what can be pulled from them. lol Which happens a lot.

Does anyone here think MMA just popped up out of no where? Go take a look at the backgrounds on many o those people who compete. Where did they start? What do they do as well as their chosen competitive thing?

Yeah, that's right, there's a lot of guys in there who started traditional and still go to that well for water.