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Thread: Chum Kiu

  1. #16
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    @ Lonetiger

    If you look at page 131 in the glossary of the Complete Wing Chun book you'll see the two different characters for Chum along with their two different meanings. Try this is you want to use Romanized Cantonese words: http://www.cantonese.sheik.co.uk/dictionary/
    Last edited by Phil Redmond; 02-05-2012 at 09:37 AM.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
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    WCKwoon
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  2. #17
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    Let me add that I learned both methods of CK from different Sifus. They both have their value depending on the circumstance.
    Sifu Phillip Redmond
    Traditional Wing Chun Academy NYC/L.A.
    菲利普雷德蒙師傅
    傳統詠春拳學院紐約市

    WCKwoon
    wck
    sifupr

  3. #18

    on chum kiu

    Additionally I look at the dynamics of a well done form to understand it's meanings.

    Spencer IMO puts greater faith on the character alone and what he says his sifu told him.

    Different tones for chum gives you different meanings. I don't know what character Ip Man
    (Not Ip Chun and others) used himself. He did not write much. He taught by verbal instruction, correction etc not by writing for the most part.

    There is more to the form than "searching for the bridge"

    Spoken instruction pre dates the written in traditional wing chun transmission, IMO

    joy chaudhuri

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Phil Redmond View Post
    Let me add that I learned both methods of CK from different Sifus. They both have their value depending on the circumstance.
    It gets more interesting and the holes get bigger and deeper my friend.

    Please share the differences of both methods, because I am sure this is what Ian is interested in. I am too to be honest, as I remeber many things about Chum Kiu that referred to sinking, just not the name of the form
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  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    Spencer IMO puts greater faith on the character alone and what he says his sifu told him.
    You are right on many levels Joy, but wrong too. I was only responding to Phils post, but that's fine.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    Different tones for chum gives you different meanings. I don't know what character Ip Man (Not Ip Chun and others) used himself. He did not write much. He taught by verbal instruction, correction etc not by writing for the most part.
    Yes he did teach verbally to the many students who passed through him in HK. But some were taught the language of Wing Chun itself too, especially if they were 'representing' him abroad and learning 'how to teach'.

    But that's just what my Sifu says and I have never tried to find out anything more, or research things for myself
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Pretty silly really wouldn't you say? What is the character? How many variables does that throw up?? What is the form for exactly?

    There is only one character for Chum, and I was always taught seeking or searching.

    http://translate.google.com/#zh-CN|en|%E5%B0%8B%0A
    Sorry Spencer. There are many characters with the same sound and tone as Chum. Here are the ones for 'search' and 'sink':

    Search: 尋 http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...rch.php?q=%B4M
    Sink:
    http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...rch.php?q=%A8I
    http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...rch.php?q=%A8H
    Last edited by CFT; 02-07-2012 at 09:03 AM. Reason: Corrected links

  7. #22
    however you right it, say it, paint it or pronounce it, what do you do it for? what do you get out of practising it?
    A clever man learns from his mistakes but a truly wise man learns from the mistakes of others.


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  8. #23
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    Seeking the Bridge

    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunIan View Post
    I was trying to avoid just debating the literal meaning and was hoping to tease out some of the differences in theory. So far eveyone seems to concur about the introduction of movement and the generation of power but I'd love to hear from some of the "sinking the bridge" schools and some of those who are critical of using a bridge.

    There are drills I do to close the gap. Once the gap is closed and your with in range to bridge...Seeking the bridge is evident. When you seek the bridge you dont do so like you would with Chi Sau. You do so defensively while attacking. Some of techniques in chum kiu can be used to uproot or distabilize your opponent structure as you bridge the gap. Once the bridge is established you control your opponents centre.

    Many techniques of chum kiu are utilize as others have already listed on page one...

    I agree with these things people have said.

    1.Waist Power - turning and shifting
    2.Power through your sturcture as you use your footwork

    Chum Kiu links some of the basic techniques of the san sik that deals with those two ways of issuing power. It is a form the links the drills so to speak.

    But all three forms deal with so much more than underline techniques people list!!!


    Eric H said:
    When the opponent can be dealt with without moving - you use Siu Nim Tao technology.

    When the opponent forces you to move, you use Chum Kiu technology.

    I agree in short...just not the wording...It can be because your opponent is in motion or still or it could because you have advantage in one of the two areas. Using your structure and stepping into a stationary opponent with power can give you more for your buck. When an opponent retreats you can use Chum Kiu to retain contact and maintain a bridge. There are various techniques in chum kiu that can be adapted to entry techniques.

    But just is just small synopsis on what I feel about chum kiu and what I meditate on when I practice it!

    My Opinion: SLT teaches you how to face opponent in YGKYM and deal with his force. Where as Chum Kiu teaches you how to deal with an opponent force in a side stance. For instance it expounds on the footwork to generate power with the following techniques. Cho Mah(shifting), Biu Ma(darting or shooting) and Toh Ma(advancing or chasing). It links the stances into the form in addition to introducing a few kicks. In addition from the techniques that expand on Sil Lim Tao. Bil Gee Introduces Huen Ma or Circle step. Each Forms builds off the other and adds attributes. I believe the forms are like glossaries that can be dissected and adapted into drills that can develop your WC more. Of course as a westerner myself I do not have the time to fully develop such skills but the knowledge to do is there.

    Video I like of Chum Kiu!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLYRt..._order&list=UL


    My Conclusion: As joy said there is more to chum kiu than seeking the bridge. But When i practice it thats what i focus on among other things. I do not know about the sinking bridge analogy. I would love to hear how people apply or train or drill sinking the bridge. i can merely speculate on sinking the bridge as it concides with Chum Kiu since I didnt learn this way. Please share!
    Last edited by Yoshiyahu; 02-07-2012 at 09:29 AM.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    Sorry Spencer. There are many characters with the same sound and tone as Chum. Here are the ones for 'search' and 'sink':

    Search: 尋 http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...rch.php?q=%B4M
    Sink:
    http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...rch.php?q=%A8I
    http://humanum.arts.cuhk.edu.hk/Lexi...rch.php?q=%A8H
    Thanks for the info Chee, but if you know the character you know the character and the correct one (according to my transmition!) is 尋

    I've already said why I practise the form, so it's good to see others views. As a brief example, I have demonstrated this form twice for my Sifu. Once at the Hackney Empire in front of about 300 people, and the second time was in a small sound stage.

    Messed up the first one a bit, but it was epic if I may say so myself! The second time I was asked later to do it again because most didn't see it (because of the speed) and looking at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLYRt..._order&list=UL I just can't take it seriously.

    I'm sorry, but there are just too many things wrong in this specific version, which is also the same as Pan Nam and Cheung Bo lineage from my research. Except they had more control over their power lines than the YKS example in the clip imho.

    Erratic, unconcentrated speed will not give you the power signature of a good Chum Kiu form imo and it will play havoc with your joints later in life lol! Looked like a typical CK that had no SLT base... (sorry Yoshiyahu!)
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 02-07-2012 at 10:34 AM.
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  10. #25
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    That's fine Spencer. Just that it is a bit misleading to say there is only one character for Chum in general. Other lineages do use the 'sink' character. I'm not bothered by that per se. Just that the right characteristics are cultivated in the training.

  11. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by CFT View Post
    That's fine Spencer. Just that it is a bit misleading to say there is only one character for Chum in general. Other lineages do use the 'sink' character. I'm not bothered by that per se. Just that the right characteristics are cultivated in the training.
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    True. Dogmatic dependence on a character can miss many things.
    Spencers link has a malformed video!! No matter- I have little interest in Pan Nam.

    joy

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    True. Dogmatic dependence on a character can miss many things.
    Spencers link has a malformed video!! No matter- I have little interest in Pan Nam.

    joy
    It's okay I don't have a dogmatic dependence on the character at all, just sharing what I know as I have never seen the other characters used by anyone yet. I do love the language as this was how I was taught, but that's just me. I don't expect everyone to share the same interest.

    The link was actually Yoshiyahu's one of a YKS version http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLYRt..._order&list=UL
    Ti Fei
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  13. #28
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    Yes I am going to say it...

    Nice post Kev!

    (NOTE: Well, it was before you removed it! Strange...)
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 02-17-2012 at 05:07 AM.
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  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu View Post
    There are drills I do to close the gap. Once the gap is closed and your with in range to bridge...Seeking the bridge is evident. When you seek the bridge you dont do so like you would with Chi Sau. You do so defensively while attacking. Some of techniques in chum kiu can be used to uproot or distabilize your opponent structure as you bridge the gap. Once the bridge is established you control your opponents centre.

    Many techniques of chum kiu are utilize as others have already listed on page one...

    I agree with these things people have said.

    1.Waist Power - turning and shifting
    2.Power through your sturcture as you use your footwork

    Chum Kiu links some of the basic techniques of the san sik that deals with those two ways of issuing power. It is a form the links the drills so to speak.

    But all three forms deal with so much more than underline techniques people list!!!


    Eric H said:


    I agree in short...just not the wording...It can be because your opponent is in motion or still or it could because you have advantage in one of the two areas. Using your structure and stepping into a stationary opponent with power can give you more for your buck. When an opponent retreats you can use Chum Kiu to retain contact and maintain a bridge. There are various techniques in chum kiu that can be adapted to entry techniques.

    But just is just small synopsis on what I feel about chum kiu and what I meditate on when I practice it!

    My Opinion: SLT teaches you how to face opponent in YGKYM and deal with his force. Where as Chum Kiu teaches you how to deal with an opponent force in a side stance. For instance it expounds on the footwork to generate power with the following techniques. Cho Mah(shifting), Biu Ma(darting or shooting) and Toh Ma(advancing or chasing). It links the stances into the form in addition to introducing a few kicks. In addition from the techniques that expand on Sil Lim Tao. Bil Gee Introduces Huen Ma or Circle step. Each Forms builds off the other and adds attributes. I believe the forms are like glossaries that can be dissected and adapted into drills that can develop your WC more. Of course as a westerner myself I do not have the time to fully develop such skills but the knowledge to do is there.

    Video I like of Chum Kiu!!!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLYRt..._order&list=UL


    My Conclusion: As joy said there is more to chum kiu than seeking the bridge. But When i practice it thats what i focus on among other things. I do not know about the sinking bridge analogy. I would love to hear how people apply or train or drill sinking the bridge. i can merely speculate on sinking the bridge as it concides with Chum Kiu since I didnt learn this way. Please share!

    Whilst I was reading through this, I had one of those sudden flashes of inspiration (although it COULD be complete bobbins).

    SLT, as we all know, is done in the basic YGKYM stance and doesn't shift from this... CK on the other hand involves movement, mainly at 90 degrees to the centreline established with YGKYM.

    Bearing this in mind, is it fair to say that SLT is establishing techniques for inside gate whereas CK introduces techniques for the outside gate?

    Looking forward to the responses on this

    Mat

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Treznor View Post
    Whilst I was reading through this, I had one of those sudden flashes of inspiration (although it COULD be complete bobbins).

    SLT, as we all know, is done in the basic YGKYM stance and doesn't shift from this... CK on the other hand involves movement, mainly at 90 degrees to the centreline established with YGKYM.

    Bearing this in mind, is it fair to say that SLT is establishing techniques for inside gate whereas CK introduces techniques for the outside gate?

    Looking forward to the responses on this

    Mat
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hi Treznor- IMO of course, hopefully without bobbins(?). While techniques emerge from slt and ck...
    they are both about control and master coordinated motions of the entire body in different directions.

    Chum kiu is not just about inside gates..it applies to all gates and directions. After understanding the body structure and hand structire in slt, chum kiu footwork is rich with subtleties.

    joy chaudhuri

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