Chum Kiu

[Treznor]

Yeah, I wasn't thinking in terms of SLT being exclusively inside gate and CK being exclusively outside gate... More that they introduce techniques / lend themselves to inside / outside gates.

Oh, and 'bobbins' basically means rubbish (at least in this context)

Mat

[WingChunABQ]

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Hi Treznor- IMO of course, hopefully without bobbins(?). While techniques emerge from slt and ck...
they are both about control and master coordinated motions of the entire body in different directions.

Chum kiu is not just about inside gates..it applies to all gates and directions. After understanding the body structure and hand structire in slt, chum kiu footwork is rich with subtleties.

joy chaudhuri

In what ways would you say that SLT body structure/power generation related to those of Chum Kiu?

[Yoshiyahu]

Whilst I was reading through this, I had one of those sudden flashes of inspiration (although it COULD be complete bobbins).

SLT, as we all know, is done in the basic YGKYM stance and doesn't shift from this... CK on the other hand involves movement, mainly at 90 degrees to the centreline established with YGKYM.

Bearing this in mind, is it fair to say that SLT is establishing techniques for inside gate whereas CK introduces techniques for the outside gate?

Looking forward to the responses on this

Mat

Yes thats a good way to put it...In my opinion i see it that way too but more so...Chum Kiu is what you do to create a bridge or when you lost connection and need to re-establish a bridge. An chi sau and slt is what you do once the bridge is made! When your bridging utilize chi sau and slt...when you have no bridge utilize chum kiu to create one!

But both forms have other elements with in them besides those two focal ideas!

[anerlich]

Whilst I was reading through this, I had one of those sudden flashes of inspiration (although it COULD be complete bobbins).

SLT, as we all know, is done in the basic YGKYM stance and doesn't shift from this... CK on the other hand involves movement, mainly at 90 degrees to the centreline established with YGKYM.

Bearing this in mind, is it fair to say that SLT is establishing techniques for inside gate whereas CK introduces techniques for the outside gate?

I think you are on to something there.

However, I train a variation of SLT with footwork and (mostly) without YGKYM ... and in that context I believe SLT involves predominantly outer gate deflections and CK inner gate deflections.

Also, while the movement might be 90 degrees to the centreline in CK, I see a lot of the energy/intent approximately on the 45's (or from a TWC point of view, along the central line)(s).

[imperialtaichi]

In my opinion, while SLT is great in building up structure, habit and power, it alone is not great for being the aggressor and getting into range. Try sparring with someone who is mobile (e.g. Boxers, MT etc) and see how well you do just using standard SLT and reactive Chi Sau techniques.

Chum Kiu, on the other hand, is great for being the "aggressor", actively moving in, "seeking the bridge", intercepting, jamming, chasing and pressing the opponent.

Of course, part of dominating the opponent is through "sinking bridge" to almost lock him in and take away his mobility. Almost like a "clinch" but not really at the same time.

In a fight, it is necessary to be the "dominator", be active instead of reactive. Make the opponent deal with you, instead of you dealing with the opponent.

[wingchunIan]

In my opinion, while SLT is great in building up structure, habit and power, it alone is not great for being the aggressor and getting into range. Try sparring with someone who is mobile (e.g. Boxers, MT etc) and see how well you do just using standard SLT and reactive Chi Sau techniques.

Chum Kiu, on the other hand, is great for being the "aggressor", actively moving in, "seeking the bridge", intercepting, jamming, chasing and pressing the opponent.

Of course, part of dominating the opponent is through "sinking bridge" to almost lock him in and take away his mobility. Almost like a "clinch" but not really at the same time.

In a fight, it is necessary to be the "dominator", be active instead of reactive. Make the opponent deal with you, instead of you dealing with the opponent.

As you're the first to mention sinking bridge, could you perhaps provide some insight as to how this aspect is trained through the form?

[Treznor]

As it happens we worked through the first couple of sections of CK in training last night...

In addition to everything else that's been mentioned here, there also seems to be a lot of emphasis on the elbows connection to the hip and, when that connection is lost, how to regain it.

Mat

[LoneTiger108]

As it happens we worked through the first couple of sections of CK in training last night...

Just out of curiosity Mat, how long did you say you had been training? From what I remember you were very very young (5 months?) so is it normal to learn Chum Kiu so early?

This for me is a major problem with commercial teaching/learning.

[Treznor]

I started last August so 6 months now.

Basically, until the beginning of this year, there was only myself and 1 other guy training at the club since it has only just been setup.

Our sifu has only just started teaching but it was HIS sifu who oversaw the grading last November and decided that we were progressing well (a combination of 2 on 1 tuition and working with the other guy so we get to train at dinner times as well).



Mat

[LoneTiger108]

So are you saying you have put in more than 20hrs a week during your time there?? And have you previous experience of martial arts?

Maybe I'm just too old fashioned!

[imperialtaichi]

As you're the first to mention sinking bridge, could you perhaps provide some insight as to how this aspect is trained through the form?

Hello WCI,

I don't have any clips of Chum Kiu, but a while back I posted a "Sinking Bridge" method using the Kulo 22 "Stack Palms".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMzKY...6bAUAAAAAAAGAA

The principles can be applied in, for example, the "Lan Sau" in Chum Kiu.

[LoneTiger108]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMzKY...6bAUAAAAAAAGAA

The principles can be applied in, for example, the "Lan Sau" in Chum Kiu.

Interesting to see you say this because the posturing and stance you use in the clip is quite far removed from the single lansau of a standard Chum Kiu set. Totally diferent purpose and mechanics. Good gongfu but not linked at all imho.

I presume you have not learnt Chum Kiu through the Kulo WCK but from elsewhere?

[Vajramusti]

Hello WCI,

I don't have any clips of Chum Kiu, but a while back I posted a "Sinking Bridge" method using the Kulo 22 "Stack Palms".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BMzKY...6bAUAAAAAAAGAA

The principles can be applied in, for example, the "Lan Sau" in Chum Kiu.

---------------------------------

Good demo of a lan usage.

loy

[Treznor]

So are you saying you have put in more than 20hrs a week during your time there?? And have you previous experience of martial arts?

Maybe I'm just too old fashioned!

Definitely not 20hrs + a week (or anywhere close to that)... We have a 2 hour training session, occasional practice at lunch times and then practicing forms at home.

I used to do Shorinji Kempo way back when I was at school but nothing more recently

Mat

[imperialtaichi]

Interesting to see you say this because the posturing and stance you use in the clip is quite far removed from the seung lansau of a standard Chum Kiu set. Totally diferent purpose and mechanics. Good gongfu but not linked at all imho.

I presume you have not learnt Chum Kiu through the Kulo WCK but from elsewhere?

Ah, on the contrary, while the posture might be different, the principal is the same. I don't have any clips on the lan sau, but I can substitute using the chum kiu stance just the same.

I started WC in 1987 on the TST line. Then got some influence from WSL line as well. Kulo came much later.