Chum Kiu

[k gledhill]

People who seldom or never have worked against resisting opponents in an unrestricted movement setting tend to develop viewpoints about gloves such that they think they change the game, no longer a realistic fight, it messes up their WC, etc. They are deluded.

Gloves are there so you can learn to hit harder and learn to fight while being hit harder. If you can't ko someone or hit hard enough to end a fight with gloves there is nothing magical that is going to make you be able to do it without gloves in a street scenario.

But people basically slap box and/or compliant chi sau with little to no strikes and think that will adequately prepare them for a real fight. Hint. It won't. If you are in a real fight against someone who has prepared for it by hitting hard and being hit hard, then you're not going to be prepared.

I have experience fighting with and without gloves, Wayfaring what do you think, fighting without gloves ? whats your option for a guy with his head down coming at you..use a fist on his head ?
Curious as you have all this experience ?
Do you punch/strike without gloves/wraps on heavy bags ?
What, from your experience, is a common result of early bare knuckle conditioning on bags ?

How many guys have you ko'ed without gloves, compared with gloves ?

How should I hold my hand when striking to avoid injuries from bare knuckles, fighting ? Why ?

[k gledhill]

Woah! You interpret our knives as a long range weapon??? Now we're on opposite sides of the universe



Actually, yes. There 'should' be virtually nothing you do with your empty hand that does not have a similar method with the knife. Slight distance adjustments are needed of course but chum jarng is no different.

Y'know it's as if you guys think a trained knife man will be sloppy, innaccurate or clueless! Our knives are a speciality of the whole system. The cream on the cake and all that. Something treasured. Don't you agree?

We adopt different footwork and longer distances for a reason....

[Wayfaring]

I have experience fighting with and without gloves, Wayfaring what do you think, fighting without gloves ? whats your option for a guy with his head down coming at you..use a fist on his head ?

Depends. How fast coming at me? Striking or takedown attempt? In general no don't punch people's foreheads you'll hurt your hands. Stand them up then hit the chin or temple. Takedown attempts are different. You have to stuff it then I usually work ground or gnp.

Curious as you have all this experience ?
Do you punch/strike without gloves/wraps on heavy bags ?

Generally I don't. I develop power with my hands protected.

What, from your experience, is a common result of early bare knuckle conditioning on bags ?

Split skin, calcium buildup on knuckles, long-term arthritis of joints.

How many guys have you ko'ed without gloves, compared with gloves ?

Well, I haven't KO'd you yet

How should I hold my hand when striking to avoid injuries from bare knuckles, fighting ? Why ?

With the way you guys like to hold each others hands out there in St. Louis, you're unlikely to injure your knuckles.

Now why don't you give it a whirl answering your own 20 questions?

[k gledhill]

Depends. How fast coming at me? Striking or takedown attempt? In general no don't punch people's foreheads you'll hurt your hands. Stand them up then hit the chin or temple. Takedown attempts are different. You have to stuff it then I usually work ground or gnp.


Generally I don't. I develop power with my hands protected.

Split skin, calcium buildup on knuckles, long-term arthritis of joints.

Well, I haven't KO'd you yet

With the way you guys like to hold each others hands out there in St. Louis, you're unlikely to injure your knuckles.

Now why don't you give it a whirl answering your own 20 questions?

Lets just leave it there.... I think we can read between the lines.

[Eric_H]

In regard to the last few posts on if gloves are evil or necessary or whatever,

In my experience hand wrapping and boxing gloves rob you of the ability to perform most Kiu Sao techniques as well as Chi Sao Techniques. Personally, I wouldn't use them to train WC.

Smaller MMA-style gloves can be somewhat limiting on how you express your wrist energy but allow a lot more expression with the forearms (assuming the hands aren't also wrapped). This can be beneficial in reducing injuries in certain training situations.

Wing Chun is a bare-knuckle fighting system, arthritis and excessive calcification are possible outcomes. I know of more than one senior member of our org that had to have bone spurs removed because of iron body conditioning. This is part of the price for that type of skill - up to the individual if they want to accept the risk/reward. There are ways to reduce the risk found in Chinese medicine and western nutrition, but nothing is a guarantee.

[JPinAZ]

Lets just leave it there.... I think we can read between the lines.

Kev, your value just dropped a whole lot of points here if Dave/Wayfaring takes the time to answer all of your questions honestly and you can't do the same in return except for this cr@p comment. Pretty sad bro..

[Wayfaring]

Lets just leave it there.... I think we can read between the lines.

Why don't you spell it out? Are you slamming me here? Yoshiyahu? Or just being a general douche?

[Wayfaring]

In regard to the last few posts on if gloves are evil or necessary or whatever,

In my experience hand wrapping and boxing gloves rob you of the ability to perform most Kiu Sao techniques as well as Chi Sao Techniques. Personally, I wouldn't use them to train WC.

I think gloves or hand wrappings changes the energy involved a little in that things are a little more "bouncy" on bridge contact (IF contact is made with wrist contact and energy - the forearm bridge doesn't seem a whole lot different to me).

However, I don't agree with the "rob you of the ability to perform..." statement. It's a modification and adaptation to make those work, not a complete negation of the ability to do kiu sau / chi sau.

The benefit you experience is practice in actually hitting someone harder and in being hit harder. Consistent harder contact helps you adjust to a fight scenario where you are getting hit so that you don't experience the flinch mechanism and the extreme adrenaline dump like the first time you do that kind of thing.

But YMMV. I wouldn't wear gloves outside of free motion sparring, unless for conditioning work. I wouldn't wear them doing forms or restricted motion drills.

Smaller MMA-style gloves can be somewhat limiting on how you express your wrist energy but allow a lot more expression with the forearms (assuming the hands aren't also wrapped). This can be beneficial in reducing injuries in certain training situations.

Hmmm. Hand wraps shouldn't interfere with forearm contact at all, unless you are wrapping them incorrectly. Should pad wrist contact a little. The 4 oz gloves allow for everything open hand does expect for the knuckle joint injuries. I can even grab cloth for using it in submissions.

Wing Chun is a bare-knuckle fighting system, arthritis and excessive calcification are possible outcomes. I know of more than one senior member of our org that had to have bone spurs removed because of iron body conditioning. This is part of the price for that type of skill - up to the individual if they want to accept the risk/reward. There are ways to reduce the risk found in Chinese medicine and western nutrition, but nothing is a guarantee.

I have a different viewpoint. I view Wing Chun as principles and body mechanics for the control of time, space, and energy. Saying it's only useful in a bare-knuckle scenario negates that those principles work universally in all fighting scenarios. If the mechanics and fundamentals work without gloves, they will work with gloves also, with minor modifications.

For myself, as a personal health choice, I prefer to avoid the calcification and bone spurs route.

[Eric_H]

I think gloves or hand wrappings changes the energy involved a little in that things are a little more "bouncy" on bridge contact (IF contact is made with wrist contact and energy - the forearm bridge doesn't seem a whole lot different to me).

However, I don't agree with the "rob you of the ability to perform..." statement. It's a modification and adaptation to make those work, not a complete negation of the ability to do kiu sau / chi sau.

The benefit you experience is practice in actually hitting someone harder and in being hit harder. Consistent harder contact helps you adjust to a fight scenario where you are getting hit so that you don't experience the flinch mechanism and the extreme adrenaline dump like the first time you do that kind of thing.

But YMMV. I wouldn't wear gloves outside of free motion sparring, unless for conditioning work. I wouldn't wear them doing forms or restricted motion drills.

Hey Dave,

No argument on gloves allowing for more contact with less chance of injury. People argue if it's necessary or not, I personally sought it out outside of Wing Chun and found it beneficial to my overall fighting ability. Arguments will always ensue as to how much of your training should consist of this, I'll leave that up to the peanut gallery.

Kiu sao requires a balance of energy between wrist and forearm, I find that having your hand wrapped into a fist makes Kiu Sao techniques less effective because you can't express the wrist energy right. That's why I say that they interfere. Wrist wrapping is great to protect the wrist for striking practice (heavy bag) I just find it a hindrance during bridging. I disagree and think Tahn/Bong/Fook style chi sao is out the window completely with boxing gloves.

Saying it's only useful in a bare-knuckle scenario negates that those principles work universally in all fighting scenarios. If the mechanics and fundamentals work without gloves, they will work with gloves also, with minor modifications.

I did not say bare-knuckle is the only scenario it is useful, those words are yours. FWIW, I agree with you in reference to the mechanics - in our lineage modifications you make moves it over to Hung Fa Boxing as opposed to Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. It is still an expression of pieces of the system, just not a complete picture.

I was left with arthritis after some supplemental training we used to do back in the day (remember 5 star blocking?) Iron Body training has not made it worse yet. I will let you know how it goes, perhaps you will be laughing at me in another 10 years

[Wayfaring]

Hey Dave,

No argument on gloves allowing for more contact with less chance of injury. People argue if it's necessary or not, I personally sought it out outside of Wing Chun and found it beneficial to my overall fighting ability. Arguments will always ensue as to how much of your training should consist of this, I'll leave that up to the peanut gallery.

Cool - I know you've done this and think it rounds out your training. I think the balance is up to an individual and the coach they work with.

Kiu sao requires a balance of energy between wrist and forearm, I find that having your hand wrapped into a fist makes Kiu Sao techniques less effective because you can't express the wrist energy right. That's why I say that they interfere. Wrist wrapping is great to protect the wrist for striking practice (heavy bag) I just find it a hindrance during bridging.

I guess the actual fight wrappings with guaze that conform your hand to a fist might affect that. I don't know that I've found normal hand wraps which leave you able to make a fist or a flat knifehand hinder you much. But you'll have to show me about the wrist energy sometime.

I disagree and think Tahn/Bong/Fook style chi sao is out the window completely with boxing gloves.

You are probably right there. You can do it with 4oz gloves though.

I did not say bare-knuckle is the only scenario it is useful, those words are yours. FWIW, I agree with you in reference to the mechanics - in our lineage modifications you make moves it over to Hung Fa Boxing as opposed to Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. It is still an expression of pieces of the system, just not a complete picture.

You said it was a bare-knuckle art. Maybe it is. I feel the structure, range and box training transfers to a boxing glove environment. I'm sure that expressing pieces of the system is exactly what I do.

I was left with arthritis after some supplemental training we used to do back in the day (remember 5 star blocking?) Iron Body training has not made it worse yet. I will let you know how it goes, perhaps you will be laughing at me in another 10 years

[Yoshiyahu]

I have to agree with you. I think the common factor is practice. The more you practice something the better it gets. Its like saying A boxer can't rock you to sleep with out boxing gloves on.

Mike Tyson had fights both in the ring and in the streets where no gloves were profided. I gurantee you a boxer punch is more lethal with out the gloves. I find people make excuses for thier own short comings. There are two parts to martial arts fighting...1.Finishing your opponent quickly, 2.Trading Techniques to increase your skill,ability,knowledge and experience.

I think its good to do some light sparring aka slap boxing where you utilize strickly WC principles and WC Techniques. But I also think its a good idea to put the gloves on an get some real energy thrown at you with out the damage an unpadded fist can do to you.

I gurantee you with some MMA gloves or Kempo Gloves you can still utilize the WC Techniques. The energy might need to be modified but its still WC. Actually sparring will look different than chi sau. Because you are not always with in bridging range, nor does your opponent comply with your sticky hand exercise. They move in and out, Move around, Circle, Feint and blah blah blah.

Besides that I find putting some gloves on an mixing it up a little to be quite fun!

People who seldom or never have worked against resisting opponents in an unrestricted movement setting tend to develop viewpoints about gloves such that they think they change the game, no longer a realistic fight, it messes up their WC, etc. They are deluded.

Gloves are there so you can learn to hit harder and learn to fight while being hit harder. If you can't ko someone or hit hard enough to end a fight with gloves there is nothing magical that is going to make you be able to do it without gloves in a street scenario.

But people basically slap box and/or compliant chi sau with little to no strikes and think that will adequately prepare them for a real fight. Hint. It won't. If you are in a real fight against someone who has prepared for it by hitting hard and being hit hard, then you're not going to be prepared.

Why don't you spell it out? Are you slamming me here? Yoshiyahu? Or just being a general douche?

How did my name get mixxed up here...what is going on...Please share with me?