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Thread: Chum Kiu

  1. #46
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    Good point about being the aggressor. being on the offensive WC your Sparring is focus of WC...If your not attacking your not doing WC. The bridge is actually sparring. Yes SLT and chi sau will not give you the strategy you need to chase or be aggressive with your opponent. But neither will chum kiu alone. One needs to train separately bridging the gap, chasing the opponent, Using entry techniques and attacking their opponent relentless...One needs to drill these concepts in order for it to become apart of him. Just practicing chum kiu alone wont bring you there...an of course actually sparring with intent develops these concepts.


    I see the forms as glossaries of techniques one can isolate an utilize to develop various skill sets. But i believe one should already be practicing bridging and entry techniques long before he starts learning chum kiu...If he practices being the aggressor long before that...then he will understand how to utilize CK when he starts training it...

    Chi Sau can be reactive as well as proactive...it depends on your intent. If your intent is to learn how to open doors to strike you will be proactive. if your intent is to learn how defend against various attacks your approach will be reactive.

    So my question is can one be aggressive with SLT...Can you utilize the techniques of SLT while in motion. When i started learning WC at 16 we started with Ma form and SLT. Both are stationary forms. We also train various punches such as stepping punch and stepping side punch that rotates using the waist and body for more power. We also did mobile chi sau as well as stationary. An of course me an my buddy would spar every day in school and out of school and with various people we went to school with. That was just with SLT and Chi Sau, footwork and various drills we utilize.

    So my question is can one be aggressive and dominant with just STL if he uses footwork, stepping attacks and other entry and closing the gaps drills?


    Quote Originally Posted by imperialtaichi View Post
    In my opinion, while SLT is great in building up structure, habit and power, it alone is not great for being the aggressor and getting into range. Try sparring with someone who is mobile (e.g. Boxers, MT etc) and see how well you do just using standard SLT and reactive Chi Sau techniques.

    Chum Kiu, on the other hand, is great for being the "aggressor", actively moving in, "seeking the bridge", intercepting, jamming, chasing and pressing the opponent.

    Of course, part of dominating the opponent is through "sinking bridge" to almost lock him in and take away his mobility. Almost like a "clinch" but not really at the same time.

    In a fight, it is necessary to be the "dominator", be active instead of reactive. Make the opponent deal with you, instead of you dealing with the opponent.
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by imperialtaichi View Post
    Ah, on the contrary, while the posture might be different, the principal is the same. I don't have any clips on the lan sau, but I can substitute using the chum kiu stance just the same.
    Ok Let's look at the specifics here. What stance are you using in the clip? Looks like a Gung Ji Bo of sorts, but not related to YJKYM or CK Ma as I know it so that's why I'm saying it is different mechanics.

    Then lets look at your 'single handed' lansau (left), of which from the looks of it you are pressing inwards with a Quansau posture. Within Chum Kiu, every single handed lansau is actually turning in the 'other' direction entirely! And for the language types out there, pressing is not to be confused with barring imho!

    I understand that you are very well versed in different families approach to WCK, so please don't take offence to my input. It is after all only an opinion!!
    Ti Fei
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  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Ok Let's look at the specifics here. What stance are you using in the clip? Looks like a Gung Ji Bo of sorts, but not related to YJKYM or CK Ma as I know it so that's why I'm saying it is different mechanics.

    Then lets look at your 'single handed' lansau (left), of which from the looks of it you are pressing inwards with a Quansau posture. Within Chum Kiu, every single handed lansau is actually turning in the 'other' direction entirely! And for the language types out there, pressing is not to be confused with barring imho!

    I understand that you are very well versed in different families approach to WCK, so please don't take offence to my input. It is after all only an opinion!!
    None taken It is a discussion.

    I don't care much about what the stance looks like, but the YJKYM is always there; the signature squeezing of the knees and straightening of the spine and opening of the shoulder blades are always there. I let my feet take me to where it is advantages.

    May be one day I should do a clip on lan sau. I love lan sau. I love YJKYM even more
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    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by imperialtaichi View Post
    None taken It is a discussion.

    I don't care much about what the stance looks like, but the YJKYM is always there; the signature squeezing of the knees and straightening of the spine and opening of the shoulder blades are always there. I let my feet take me to where it is advantages.

    May be one day I should do a clip on lan sau. I love lan sau. I love YJKYM even more
    Hi John
    Yes, good point about YJKYM always being there. When i said in an old post that you always fight from that stance i got rained on, but i think they took it too literally.

    FWIW i use it a lot in my boxing/MT, its just not that obvious. Id suggest the Alan Orr boys are similar.

    When we catching up?!?!?!

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Hi John
    Yes, good point about YJKYM always being there. When i said in an old post that you always fight from that stance i got rained on, but i think they took it too literally.

    FWIW i use it a lot in my boxing/MT, its just not that obvious. Id suggest the Alan Orr boys are similar.

    When we catching up?!?!?!
    Hey Glenn, I suppose it is easy to misunderstand; there are stances that looks like YJKYM but not really, then there are ones that didn't but are absolutely.

    I'm going up the coast for 2wks, let's catch up when I'm back.
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  6. #51
    Thanks for posting John. It's really interesting to me that there seems to be a whole school of thought following Chum Kiu as sinking the bridge but no one is ever able / willing to illustrate the concept. I wasn't necessarily after a vid so thanks for posting. Aside from the Lan sau and possibly the dai bong sau, I can't see enough sinking in chum kiu to explain why the form would be named after the concept. I'm not saying it isn't the case (although clearly I have been raised in the seeking school of thought) and believe that there is room for both but as much as I enquire and question about the sinking aspect of chum kiu nothing is ever forthcoming
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunIan View Post
    ... I'm not saying it isn't the case (although clearly I have been raised in the seeking school of thought) and believe that there is room for both but as much as I enquire and question about the sinking aspect of chum kiu nothing is ever forthcoming
    Hi Ian. I can share with you a little of what I have learnt about sinking and it's relationship to Chum Kiu.

    While I was learning the sets, we discussed the concept of chum jang (sinking elbow). This was explained as being different from the name of the form and sansau variations were shown that literally involved smothering the oppponents bridge with forward and downward pressure using the elbow positions and forearms. Then, with a little torque in the waist you could turn (literally screw!) yourself into the floor and this would cause the opponent to be dragged downwards to the ground. And using the forms sets to understand which way to turn is fundamental and this is what I feel John was NOT doing.

    The pairing of the elbow and knee joints was key (unlike some who pair the elbow and hip) as were the hip and shoulder, and ankle and wrist. This is why I think the term 'sinking' came from because back when this was first taught early on in a students game it was probably confused with the name of the form. So, I do understand people who use this method because it IS something Chum Kiu concentrates on.

    I used to compare it to 'drowning', meaning that the opponent feels smothered, has very restricted movement and unltimately does not feel like they can stand upright/get to the surface and if they do try, every effort is smothered again until they give up and go down! This is all done without even hitting them

    I have also experienced this same feeling when a good Muay Thai man grabbed my neck, sunk his elbows into my chest and started to pull me around the ring! Happy days!!
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 02-10-2012 at 07:49 AM.
    Ti Fei
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  8. #53
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    Spencer, funny you should mention drowning. You may know this already given your love of the language, but the same 'sink' character (chum) has an alternate pronunciation 'zum' which colloquially means drowning/dunking.

    Anyway, I thought lan sau was about turning the opponent away from you when you reach their flank?
    Last edited by CFT; 02-10-2012 at 04:10 AM.

  9. #54
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    You see Chee I knew you might see what I mean! In the end

    Yes you're right about the 'single' lansau as each time it's presented it is turning the opponent away (and down!) but I thought that was made clear in my example?

    I do love Chum Kiu

    In this recent clip my Sifu presents the idea of 'sinking elbow' originating from the Wing Chun opening salutation (cross arms) prior to launching his chain strikes... same concept, without using the torque/turning. Enjoy!

    http://www.facebook.com/#!/photo.php...type=2&theater
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 02-10-2012 at 04:32 AM.
    Ti Fei
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  10. #55
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    sinking can also mean to distroy the opponent's body structure by sinking his bridge so that you can enter his bountry.

  11. #56
    The irony is that CK isnt about 'Creating Bridges', but how to get rid of attempts to bridge or touch us, and finish the fight aqap by moving and hitting parrying in one motion.

    sinking a bridge means what ? you cant cross over to me anymore.

    The same irony applies to a drill called 'sticky hands', also has no attempt to control arms by pressure....
    I know, crazy talk.

    Ballistic displacing force. LDBK pole

    When we practice together the idea that we dont retract arms from the initiation point of force, doesnt allow our partner to LSJC us....we are developing ballistic force to simultaneously displace arms from our path to strike, not touch and over control arms perpetually.

    If you seek to make a bridge to me , sorry I wont let you. I wont seek out your arms either , just your head, throat, center.

    The SKILL we develop is to do this energy to displace without losing our stability and ability to strike with balanced force as we move to attack in all directions.

  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by wingchunIan View Post
    Thanks for posting John. It's really interesting to me that there seems to be a whole school of thought following Chum Kiu as sinking the bridge but no one is ever able / willing to illustrate the concept. I wasn't necessarily after a vid so thanks for posting. Aside from the Lan sau and possibly the dai bong sau, I can't see enough sinking in chum kiu to explain why the form would be named after the concept. I'm not saying it isn't the case (although clearly I have been raised in the seeking school of thought) and believe that there is room for both but as much as I enquire and question about the sinking aspect of chum kiu nothing is ever forthcoming
    ----------------------------------------------------------------------Hi Ian

    Chum Kiu is full of chumkiu- sinking the bridge led by the elbow. Biu jong sao and sink into lan.
    Bong and sink into lan, While moving- wu/bong and sink with elbow and kiu- with Kwan. Double dai bolg then sink kiu with tan at the side Etc. There is a lot to chum as sinking.

    Wing chun is not tte only way to fight--but if wing chun is the art of one's choice-it's full of sinkinng.


    joy chaudhuri

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    The irony is that CK isnt about 'Creating Bridges', but how to get rid of attempts to bridge or touch us, and finish the fight aqap by moving and hitting parrying in one motion.

    sinking a bridge means what ? you cant cross over to me anymore.
    I think I covered that in my post?

    "I used to compare it to 'drowning', meaning that the opponent feels smothered, has very restricted movement and unltimately does not feel like they can stand upright/get to the surface and if they do try, every effort is smothered again until they give up and go down! This is all done without even hitting them"

    Quote Originally Posted by k gledhill View Post
    If you seek to make a bridge to me , sorry I wont let you. I wont seek out your arms either , just your head, throat, center.
    I'm definitely not chasing hamds either. IOW I am not seeking 'a' bridge I 'am' the seeking bridge. Does that make sense to you?
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 02-10-2012 at 07:50 AM.
    Ti Fei
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  14. #59
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    im really enjoying those who share the concepts of sinking the bridge!
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  15. #60
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    I dont know Chinese but it seems that chinese syntax would often translate to something like CHUM KIU which transliterated into English would be Sink Bridge.
    I would probably interpret it as Sinking and Bridging. You can sink or you can bridge or you can sink while bridging. At least thats the way my sifu teaches. Sinking imparts power to movement. Bridging means once you have contact, you dont let go. When I say contact it could be actual physical contact or constructive contact, where if you wanted to have contact with the opponent you could. But once in the contact range you dont want to leave or let your opponent leave.

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