Chum Kiu

[Phil Redmond]

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Good demo of a lan usage.

loy

I use a horizontal lan to pin the arm at 2:33 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLAg7b4VkyA

[Yoshiyahu]

I use a horizontal lan to pin the arm at 2:33 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLAg7b4VkyA

Very Interesting...I like the idea behind what your doing. We do the something simliar in basics...not in chum kiu though..

[LoneTiger108]

I use a horizontal lan to pin the arm at 2:33 here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLAg7b4VkyA

I think my time here is coming to an end. I can not believe what I am seeing to be honest. After everything I have tried to say and explain, Phil (one of the more experienced and elder members of this little community!) shows us this.

Now I'm not saying that what he is doing is not related to some part of Chum Kiu, because it is. But single lansau??? Have I not already highlighted that 'pinning' is not 'barring'?? It is almost identical to what John was showing! And that idea imho is simply confused...

I am wondering if anyone else here can feel my pain?!

[LoneTiger108]

I really do not like using others to highlight my point, but this is one of the better pictures I could find to help explain what I am saying and it happens to be of a good martial colleague of mine, Sifu McKenzie



THIS is the exact single handed posture where you can issue maximium force with minimum effort, and it partly relies on a torquing of the waist (in this case, twisting to the right)

How are any of the clips from Phil or John showing THIS posture and method in ACTION?

FWIW and IMHO they are not. Simple. And these guys claim to know the second form and what it is for?? Or are they just playing with all of us? It's almost like what the guys are showing is the bongsau that comes next? (thaks to Sifu Kwok!)

[LoneTiger108]

Well, after looking through some clips I think I can see why Phil has a different view of Chum Kiu's Lansau set, because it looks like he is practising & teaching something that has had 'massive' changes by his Sifu.

I didn't realize that Master Cheung had changed so much of the original Ip Man version, and I struggled to see a comprehensive Lansau in this set

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7glkJuiJR20

Do you still practise/teach the 'basic' version Phil?

[Vajramusti]

I really do not like using others to highlight my point, but this is one of the better pictures I could find to help explain what I am saying and it happens to be of a good martial colleague of mine, Sifu McKenzie



THIS is the exact single handed posture where you can issue maximium force with minimum effort, and it partly relies on a torquing of the waist (in this case, twisting to the right)

How are any of the clips from Phil or John showing THIS posture and method in ACTION?

FWIW and IMHO they are not. Simple. And these guys claim to know the second form and what it is for?? Or are they just playing with all of us? It's almost like what the guys are showing is the bongsau that comes next? (thaks to Sifu Kwok!)

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Spencer- nowadays there are all kinds of wing chun. FWIW- my lan is not like McKenxiw's and n my bong is not like Kwok's. But I do do wing chun.

joy

[JPinAZ]

But I "do do" wing chun.

joy

Well, at least you finally admit it!

[LoneTiger108]

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Spencer- nowadays there are all kinds of wing chun. FWIW- my lan is not like McKenxiw's and n my bong is not like Kwok's. But I do do wing chun.

joy

I understand the variations Joy, but being a senior student of someone who has represented Ip Man for so many years I would have thought Phil (and yourself) would have similar form and understanding.

Obviously I was far off the mark and that is quite depressing to be honest...

Especially when your Sifu IS doing exactly what I have discussed (first Lansau at 18sec) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmLciBA5ILw

I must be seeing things, but it wouldn't be the first time!!

[Vajramusti]

I understand the variations Joy, but being a senior student of someone who has represented Ip Man for so many years I would have thought Phil (and yourself) would have similar form and understanding.

Obviously I was far off the mark and that is quite depressing to be honest...

Especially when your Sifu IS doing exactly what I have discussed (first Lansau at 18sec) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dmLciBA5ILw

I must be seeing things, but it wouldn't be the first time!!

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Spencer-

Phil does TWC and it works for him. I don' do TWC. Apart from that I don't quite know what you mean?

joy

[LoneTiger108]

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Spencer-

Phil does TWC and it works for him. I don' do TWC. Apart from that I don't quite know what you mean?

joy

TWC?? Or whatever! Sifu Cheung learnt from Ip man, as did Sifu Ho Kam Ming. I would have thought that the forms would be the one true connection to all of us because there really is no room for adjustments or additions. No room for misinterpretations and such, unlike training methods and sparring ideas.

I have already tried to explain in the previous posts and the pics were just an example of good posture of lansau and bongsau from the specific Chum Kiu set I have referred to. And in the clip of Sifu Fong he has the exact same positions in his Chum Kiu which I am referring to. Exactly the same as I learnt myself (almost!) BUT what both John and Phil have shared in their clips does not show the application of this Lansau I'm talking about!

So what do you not understand?

[WC1277]

TWC?? Or whatever! Sifu Cheung learnt from Ip man, as did Sifu Ho Kam Ming. I would have thought that the forms would be the one true connection to all of us because there really is no room for adjustments or additions. No room for misinterpretations and such, unlike training methods and sparring ideas.

I have already tried to explain in the previous posts and the pics were just an example of good posture of lansau and bongsau from the specific Chum Kiu set I have referred to. And in the clip of Sifu Fong he has the exact same positions in his Chum Kiu which I am referring to. Exactly the same as I learnt myself (almost!) BUT what both John and Phil have shared in their clips does not show the application of this Lansau I'm talking about!

So what do you not understand?

Spencer,

Of course there are some major differences between systems. While the Sifu is responsible for creating the textbook, the student is responsible for digesting it. It's really as simple as that... Unfortunately there's going to be things lost or changed. I'm sure even Ip Man had a slightly different or altered version of whom he learned from too. Really, at the end of the day, even Sifu's whom learned the system pure are still going to have refinements and additions to the system as their own understanding grows. This can be for better or worse, usually it is for worse. But for a select few it's for the better. Fong Sifu has refined the system significantly and is well respected for it, not because he did, but because his refinement stayed universally true to the core of the system.

There are others who did the same but are not as well respected beyond their association to Ip Man, because their understanding didn't stay true to the universal truth of the system.

There is no magic to wing chun, just "common sense" as Fong Sifu says....

[trubblman]

TWC?? good posture of lansau and bongsau from the specific Chum Kiu set I have referred to.

So what do you not understand?

What's good posture in lan sau or bong sau? Lan sau or bong sau is not a posture. They are hand movements. It is not the beginning or end that's important, It is the movement. What your saying sounds to me like you have frozen VT into static responses.

[wingchunIan]

I think my time here is coming to an end. I can not believe what I am seeing to be honest. After everything I have tried to say and explain, Phil (one of the more experienced and elder members of this little community!) shows us this.

Now I'm not saying that what he is doing is not related to some part of Chum Kiu, because it is. But single lansau??? Have I not already highlighted that 'pinning' is not 'barring'?? It is almost identical to what John was showing! And that idea imho is simply confused...

I am wondering if anyone else here can feel my pain?!

Spencer, do you not do the double lan sau at the start of the form? The action that Phil is demonstrating in his clip is enshrined in exactly that movement, surely you don't expect someone to do double lan sau in application? and if not why do you think the other arm is there if not to use lan sau from teh trailing arm of the turn?
The double lan sau according to the way I was taught is there to allow you to do lan sau with either arm whilst retaining structure and balance. Lan sau with the trailing arm of the turn has many, many applications including the one demoed by Phil

[Phil Redmond]

Spencer, do you not do the double lan sau at the start of the form? The action that Phil is demonstrating in his clip is enshrined in exactly that movement, surely you don't expect someone to do double lan sau in application? and if not why do you think the other arm is there if not to use lan sau from teh trailing arm of the turn?
The double lan sau according to the way I was taught is there to allow you to do lan sau with either arm whilst retaining structure and balance. Lan sau with the trailing arm of the turn has many, many applications including the one demoed by Phil

Exactly . .

[Phil Redmond]

I think my time here is coming to an end. I can not believe what I am seeing to be honest. After everything I have tried to say and explain, Phil (one of the more experienced and elder members of this little community!) shows us this.

Now I'm not saying that what he is doing is not related to some part of Chum Kiu, because it is. But single lansau??? Have I not already highlighted that 'pinning' is not 'barring'?? It is almost identical to what John was showing! And that idea imho is simply confused...

I am wondering if anyone else here can feel my pain?!

We don't do a Lan in our Chum Kiu. We have a vertical Lan in Biu Jee though. The La that i did in the clip was from SLT and it can't be perfect like the still picture you posted. There was a real human being in front of me.