Chinese Qin Na Submission

[Lucas]

The crook of the elbow is better. The most important thing is the control with the legs, though.

mmkay cool.

im just curious if these photographs are how that person would actually apply them on a resistant individual, or perhaps these are just a simple display of possible submissive techniques. unfortunately we cannot know the answer since this was like 100 years ago.

[Peaceful Orchid]

so another aspect to consider in regards to these photos. is that this is a very small hand ful of photos. im sure this is a pretty small representation of that persons training and understanding of grappling. we dont even know the context as they are stand alone photographs.

You're right. We are going on the photos. That's all we have to go by. Based on simply the photos, there are a variety of problems with those submissions.

Speculating on anything else is just speculation.

[Peaceful Orchid]

mmkay cool.

im just curious if these photographs are how that person would actually apply them on a resistant individual, or perhaps these are just a simple display of possible submissive techniques. unfortunately we cannot know the answer since this was like 100 years ago.

As I explained, those are not the best ways to apply them on a resistant individual.

[Lucas]

So far it sounds to me like learning from pictures (old or new) isn't the best way to learn these moves.

no of course not. thats a given

however it is a link that can show through disscussion with modern shuai jiao pracittioners what i am trying to ask them; that being do modern shuai jiao people train submissions like these?

[ShaolinDan]

huh, I think those are some of the 'missing' pictures from an old discussion I once got involved in here....

It had been suggested that the ground techniques from this book(if it's the same one)were imports from Judo.

Well, I'm familiar with all of those submissions (except #4, which I don't think I understand ) from my Eagle Claw curriculum. It is true though that we rarely train the ones that involve having both feet off the ground, but they are still there, and we will work on them once in a while.

But maybe there are more missing pictures with even more evolved ground-fighting...


FWIW I've never believed KF was missing ground submissions. What it seems to me to be missing in groundwork is getting position on the ground so you can pull your submission off from the ground against someone who understands wrestling.

[Lucas]

my intention in starting this thread is to get away from all the poo poo tossing that is the norm in threads around here and have an actual discussion that centers around modern shuai jiao and the connection with qin na. as im not a shuai jiao person i figured the best place to talk would be here.

[Lucas]

huh, I think those are some of the 'missing' pictures from an old discussion I once got involved in here....

It had been suggested that the ground techniques from this book(if it's the same one)were imports from Judo.

Well, I'm familiar with all of those submissions (except #4, which I don't think I understand ) from my Eagle Claw curriculum. It is true though that we rarely train the ones that involve having both feet off the ground, but they are still there, and we will work on them once in a while.

But maybe there are more missing pictures with even more evolved ground-fighting...


FWIW I've never believed KF was missing ground submissions. What it seems to me to be missing in groundwork is getting position on the ground so you can pull your submission off from the ground against someone who understands wrestling.

so then that begs a question to be answered...why is the structure off in these ?

[Lucas]

what is that last submission called? im trying to find a fight i recently saw in ufc where a guy finished from there.

another thing is that obviously in those pictures this is a display the guy is compliant.

[Peaceful Orchid]

so then that begs a question to be answered...why is the structure off in these ?

More than likely because they weren't training them in a live manner, but were simply going through the motions with compliant partners.

This is one of the things that makes Judo different from Aikido and traditional Japanese JuiJitsu.

[ShaolinDan]

so then that begs a question to be answered...why is the structure off in these ?

I can't say for sure. Is this a sport or a combat shuai jiao book?

[Peaceful Orchid]

what is that last submission called? im trying to find a fight i recently saw in ufc where a guy finished from there.

another thing is that obviously in those pictures this is a display the guy is compliant.

Head & Arm or Arm Triangle.

More than likely you won't find a finish with the hips elevated like that.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Sorry, that's not Chin na. Cleary it's BJJ. You TCMA guys need to stop claiming everything as TCMA when it's not.

I think most BJJ guys would be somewhat embarrassed to call that stuff theirs.

[Lucas]

thanks. and yes im fairly certain the guy that won was not balled under like that but extended and using his legs to help control

[ShaolinDan]

what is that last submission called?

Isn't it just a sleeper hold?

[Lucas]

I can't say for sure. Is this a sport or a combat shuai jiao book?

ya im not too sure, i just found these on the art of war mma site