Chinese Qin Na Submission

[ShaolinDan]

oh answered already, sorry threads moving to fast for my slow mind.

[Lucas]

more along these lines

[ShaolinDan]

ya im not too sure, i just found these on the art of war mma site

OK. Well, I'm not gonna look for the old thread I'm thinking of...it will bring back bad memories. But somewhere in the last year or so there was a thread with more information about this book.

[Peaceful Orchid]

more along these lines

Yes, those are the important details that are determined by live training.

[ShaolinDan]

more along these lines

Yeah, well kung fu tries too hard to keep its feet on the ground to make good wrestlers.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Yeah, well kung fu tries too hard to keep its feet on the ground to make good wrestlers.

Last time I checked, wrestling was mostly about trying to keep your feet on the ground while trying to take your opponent off his feet.

[Lucas]

i think he means submission ground grappling

[ShaolinDan]

i think he means submission ground grappling

Yes. Sorry, can't leave any doors open in a troll mine like this. Thanks Lucas. Also I should specify the 'bottoms' of the feet.

[Lucas]

Also I should specify the 'bottoms' of the feet.

lol!!!!

[Peaceful Orchid]

Yes. Sorry, can't leave any doors open in a troll mine like this. Thanks Lucas. Also I should specify the 'bottoms' of the feet.

Of course that does beg the question. Why wouldn't systems that train so hard to keep the bottoms of the feet on the ground not also become very good at submissions like judo and sambo have?

[ShaolinDan]

I guess I don't feel that's the case. Eagle Claw has great submissions. Sanda has top-notch stand-up grappling. So does shaio jiao.
I only feel like its (positioning for)submission work from the ground that isn't great.

[Lucas]

I guess I don't feel that's the case. Eagle Claw has great submissions. Sanda has top-notch stand-up grappling. So does shaio jiao.
I only feel like its (positioning for)submission work from the ground that isn't great.

i dont really buy into the cultural explination often given...it kind of makes sense, but then at the same time you have actual evidnece here that the desire and intent is there to do submission work on the ground...so wtf is the disconnect

[Peaceful Orchid]

I guess I don't feel that's the case. Eagle Claw has great submissions. Sanda has top-notch stand-up grappling. So does shaio jiao.
I only feel like its (positioning for)submission work from the ground that isn't great.

Why would judo and sambo have such good ground submission work, since they are arguably some of the best in the world at maintaining the ability to stay on their feet?

And why do all systems that have verifiable evidence of their submissions working in skilled settings have the majority of their submissions on the ground?

[Peaceful Orchid]

i dont really buy into the cultural explination often given...it kind of makes sense, but then at the same time you have actual evidnece here that the desire and intent is there to do submission work on the ground...so wtf is the disconnect

The disconnect is between training for real and training with compliant partners.

[wenshu]

Of course that does beg the question. Why wouldn't systems that train so hard to keep the bottoms of the feet on the ground not also become very good at submissions like judo and sambo have?

I don't see how wrestling to throw someone on the ground automatically implies the development of submission wrestling.

For the sake of discussion, maybe it was felt that keeping it standing lends itself better to continuous action as opposed to watching someone like Big Country Roy face sitting someone for 18 minutes.

Also you guys keep using this phrase; I do not think it means what you think it means.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Begging_the_question