Chinese Qin Na Submission

[wenshu]

Which would make the answer to the original question of the thread be "They don't, and the disconnect is that they don't use them as part of their ruleset."

Yeah, as far as I've seen and practiced modern competitive SJ doesn't.

It is possible to speculate that they existed in the past and were evident in the influence on Japanese arts. But that is speculation based on legend and apochrypha. Unless someone can point to something more substantial I have to basically say no.

Mongolian wrestling which influenced Shuai Jiao does have some form of submission wrestling. The extent of the influence of these techniques on Chinese wrestling is debatable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongolian_wrestling

The Secret History of the Mongols (written in Mongolian in 1240 AD) in Chapter 4, Paragraph 140 records a wrestling match between Buri the Wrestler and Belgutei that took place in Eastern Mongolia on the Year of the Monkey (1200 AD):

One day Genghis Khan had Buri Bokh and Belgutei wrestle each other. Buri Bokh belonged to the Jurkhin tribe. Formerly Buri Bokh was able to hold on to Belgutei by one hand, drop him to the ground by one leg and keep him immobile there on the ground. Buri Bokh was a nationally famous wrestler. However on this occasion when Buri Bokh and Belgutei were made to wrestle with each other Buri Bokh fell on the ground despite being an undefeated champion. Belgutei managed with great effort to press Buri Bokh down at the shoulder and proceeded to sit on his belt area. He then glanced at Genghis Khan from the corner of his eye. Genghis Khan bit his lower lip. Belgutei understood the meaning of this, held Buri Bokh firmly, jerked him at the chest and buttocks and broke his back. Buri Bokh said with his back broken: “I never lost a match to Belgutei. I fell purposefully to please the Khan out of fear but now I have lost my life.” Having said this he died. Belgutei broke his back, dragged him and then left his body.

[ShaolinDan]

A lot of the grip breaks could be submissions but because you are standing up you can move to nullify the disadvantageous leverage which is what your opponent wants to set up the throw.

Whereas on the ground your mobility is more easily restricted hence why the majority of submissions only work on the ground.

Standing submissions work fine in real life, they're incredibly useful. In the ring, against someone presumably at your level and totally focused on you and you only, they are not so easy... But for someone training for life, not sport, they make perfect sense. Standing arm-bar is still the number one most popular knife defense as far as I know.

[wenshu]

Yes, excellent point.

The other thing is that as soon as you commit to a standing submission, it makes it easier for your opponent to un-root you. Which is ironic when you hear people talking about the importance of maintaining their root yet having the mindset of applying standing submissions.

Yes. A standing kimura is more liability than advantage.

When I first started Shuai jiao I wrestled with some BJJ/Judo players. They kept using the standing kimura and I was just like "And?"

Had I been more seasoned at that point I would have been like

"Oh, thank you. Please, have a seat."

[Peaceful Orchid]

Standing submissions work fine in real life, they're incredibly useful.

No they don't and no they aren't.

But for someone training for life, not sport, they make perfect sense.

No they don't. What makes sense for real life is understanding that they rarely work and making adjustments accordingly.

Standing arm-bar is still the number one most popular knife defense as far as I know.

Maybe by people who have never really had to defend against a real knife.

[Drake]

Sorry, but when people start comparing "knife defense" notes, they lose a LOT of credibility.

Knives are hands down one of the worst things you'll deal with, and virtually all encounters end with you getting cut.

[Drake]

No they don't and no they aren't.



No they don't. What makes sense for real life is understanding that they rarely work and making adjustments accordingly.



Maybe by people who have never really had to defend against a real knife.

You'd rather roll on the ground with a guy with a knife?

[Yao Sing]

Better to not fight back, maybe they'll get tired of cutting and stabbing before you kick the bucket.

[ShaolinDan]

Sorry, but when people start comparing "knife defense" notes, they lose a LOT of credibility.

Knives are hands down one of the worst things you'll deal with, and virtually all encounters end with you getting cut.

This is probably true, but from what I've seen (esp. including Dog Brothers), standing arm-bar still seems to be the most commonly taught technique. 'Course the real factors are positioning and timing...

[Drake]

This is probably true, but from what I've seen (esp. including Dog Brothers), standing arm-bar still seems to be the most commonly taught technique. 'Course the real factors are positioning and timing...

Right. Has less to do with the technique, and more about those two factors.

And honestly... if someone has a knife, unless he's presently trying to stab you, disengagement (even at the cost of pride) is your best approach.

[Yao Sing]

'Course the real factors are positioning and timing...

Isn't that the key to all fighting pretty much? How often have CMA masters made that same claim?

[Hebrew Hammer]

And honestly... if someone has a knife, unless he's presently trying to stab you, disengagement (even at the cost of pride) is your best approach.

Speak for yourself...I'd rather bleed out in a dark alley than look bad....now if he were using Jazz hands, that'd be a whole different animal.

[Lucas]

[Peaceful Orchid]

This is probably true, but from what I've seen (esp. including Dog Brothers), standing arm-bar still seems to be the most commonly taught technique. 'Course the real factors are positioning and timing...

What they teach and what they actually do seem to be two different things.

This clip seems to show that they aren't any better than anyone else at disarming knives (and they sure aren't getting in any standing arm bars:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCopgQpC7ns

Thinking you can make standing submissions work other than on a fluke basis is somewhat lacking in realistic thinking. Thinking you can do them against a knife is entering the realm of total fantasy.

[Yao Sing]

Some people watch way too much TV.

I liked the girl stabbing the chubby guy multiple times while he takes her to the ground.

[Lucas]

personally im shocked that an actual decent discussion has lasted this long