When are we going to stop this?

[MasterKiller]

Jesus studied TCMA.

Yeah, and he verbally submitted.

[Ray Pina]

this mma vs tma or cma is dead thing is generally from what iv noticed an internet thing. real people training in the gym could not care any less.

Real people training in the gym know what you're capable of. You don't blah, blah, blah if you're everyone's throwing dummy.

That was one of my biggest frustrations with TCMA. I started TCMA as a second degree black belt in Issin-Ryu.... and I had to contend with sniviling seniors who demanded respect without having done anything to earn it.

Daily conversation within the first 4 months of training:
Me" When are we going to spar."

Sifu: "You can't spar with the senior's they'll hurt you. We don't train to spar or sport. We train to kill."

A lot of people believed that line I heard at pretty much every kwoon I trained at or visited.

If you're a natural at Judo or BJJ your rank will right away say more than blah, blah, blah. Those styles are regimented and standardized somewhat via competition. A brown belt in BJJ means something...... then there's always results.

This is different than "my sifu said."

[RenDaHai]

These "students of martial arts" develop a false sense of security, though they know it inside. They live week lives dodging and ditching being their highest selves..... this is also why I will not respond to you further. I don't respect you. You close topics and delete topics that are totally suitable except for your world view.

My posts are not about me or you. They're about week Kung Fu. If you take offense to that, it's because you know you haven't done the fighting I'm talking about. And neither have your students.... if you had, one video post = conversation over. You haven't and won't, because you can't. And that's why you're angry and that's my point.... frustrated cowardly men.

Sanjuro Pointed out the debate might better be called Fighters Vs. Non-Fighters. I think thats very true. Ray, why does everyone have to be a fighter? The world doesn't work that way. ANd don't non-fighters have a right to study some MA as well? They don't want to do the hardcore stuff, it will also not help them become better fighters because they are psychologically not fighters, it doesn't matter what skills they practice.

And the way they practice, however 'week' will probably help them put their hands in front of their face when trouble starts, and you know what, most of the time that's enough. They won't be able to counter anyway because its not in them to do so. So forcing them to train an aggressive style is useless. Aggressive defence is as minimal as possible, leaving as much space to counter as possible. Its not a good defence if you don't intend to counter.

So you know what, slap contact Chi Sao is enough for these guys... Whatever you think its better than nothing. They wouldn't want to do more. And combat proficiency is low on the list of their reasons for doing MA. And when it comes to the many other things a MA gives you, for many of these things, even lion dance can be stronger than mma.

Were not all the same..... A Rabbit is better off using Rabbit style than tiger style. Tiger style is stronger than rabbit style, but its just not appropriate for a rabbit. If a rabbit starts acting like a tiger, he won't last long at all.

Forgive the Child like metaphor, but I thought it may be the best way to get through to people who still don't get it.

****, I'm doing the debate again.... Gene please ban me.

[Lucas]

Real people training in the gym know what you're capable of. You don't blah, blah, blah if you're everyone's throwing dummy.

That was one of my biggest frustrations with TCMA. I started TCMA as a second degree black belt in Issin-Ryu.... and I had to contend with sniviling seniors who demanded respect without having done anything to earn it.

Daily conversation within the first 4 months of training:
Me" When are we going to spar."

Sifu: "You can't spar with the senior's they'll hurt you. We don't train to spar or sport. We train to kill."

A lot of people believed that line I heard at pretty much every kwoon I trained at or visited.

If you're a natural at Judo or BJJ your rank will right away say more than blah, blah, blah. Those styles are regimented and standardized somewhat via competition. A brown belt in BJJ means something...... then there's always results.

This is different than "my sifu said."

I agree completely. Hey Ray check out the Legend Fighting Championships. serious pro mma fighters there. If you actually read the Fighters BIOS most that claim SANDA as their style, are out of cma training camps to produce the SANDA program. just pull up all the hongkong/china fighters from their fighter rosters and you will se a shat ton of cma sanda fighters. it is a chinese mma circuit, so you will also notice they seperate muay thai from sanda in the style listing for each fighter. if you take the time, and do the research on those fighters, you will see that the way CMA represents itself in MMA is through Sanda and Shuai Jiao.

http://www.legendfc.com/en/fighters/60/Yao-Honggang/

a CMA Sanda program essentially cuts out all the fluff of cma that fighters dont need to compete in the ring. its a stream lined system of training. many sanda fighters are straight up cma .

[uki]

but you still can't grab the monkey's peach in the mma.

[Ray Pina]

I'm gonna yell so maybe this time you'll pay attention.

All of these UFC SHUI JIAO fighters that are flooding my mind.... are they of the coach ross kick boxing, wrestling, MMA type of gyms. Or are they of the form, lion dancing, kwan do spinning kwoons?

oh wait, Shui Jiao is a sport, mostly derived of Judo and Sambo players and nothing to do with Wing CHun, Taiji, Ba Gua, etc, etc, etc.

Let me rephrase my statement then so I'll be deemed more accurate:

The following styles are dead martial arts:
Wing Chun
Hung Gar (all of the Gar family styles)
S. Mantis
N. Mantis
N. Shaolin
S. Shaolin
Bak Mei
Taiji
Ba Gua
Hsing-I
Dog boxing
Five animals
Dragon style
Lama Pai
Chinese sword
Leopard Kung Fu
Monkey Kung Fu
All the animal kung fus
White Crane
Drunken fist

... I thought it was just easier to say TCMA since the what, 3 Shui JIao and San Da guys claim kickboxing.

Anyway WuShu lives and prospers.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I agree completely. Hey Ray check out the Legend Fighting Championships. serious pro mma fighters there. If you actually read the Fighters BIOS most that claim SANDA as their style, are out of cma training camps to produce the SANDA program. just pull up all the hongkong/china fighters from their fighter rosters and you will se a shat ton of cma sanda fighters. it is a chinese mma circuit, so you will also notice they seperate muay thai from sanda in the style listing for each fighter. if you take the time, and do the research on those fighters, you will see that the way CMA represents itself in MMA is through Sanda and Shuai Jiao.

http://www.legendfc.com/en/fighters/60/Yao-Honggang/

a CMA Sanda program essentially cuts out all the fluff of cma that fighters dont need to compete in the ring. its a stream lined system of training. many sanda fighters are straight up cma .

Considering the history of Sanda/sanshou I am not sure how much credit TCMA can take.
They certainly can't take MORE credit than the other systems from which techniques and training were borrowed from.

[Ray Pina]

Sanjuro Pointed out the debate might better be called Fighters Vs. Non-Fighters. I think thats very true. Ray, why does everyone have to be a fighter? The world doesn't work that way. ANd don't non-fighters have a right to study some MA as well? They don't want to do the hardcore stuff, it will also not help them become better fighters because they are psychologically not fighters, it doesn't matter what skills they practice.

And the way they practice, however 'week' will probably help them put their hands in front of their face when trouble starts, and you know what, most of the time that's enough. They won't be able to counter anyway because its not in them to do so. So forcing them to train an aggressive style is useless. Aggressive defence is as minimal as possible, leaving as much space to counter as possible. Its not a good defence if you don't intend to counter.

So you know what, slap contact Chi Sao is enough for these guys... Whatever you think its better than nothing. They wouldn't want to do more. And combat proficiency is low on the list of their reasons for doing MA. And when it comes to the many other things a MA gives you, for many of these things, even lion dance can be stronger than mma.

Were not all the same..... A Rabbit is better off using Rabbit style than tiger style. Tiger style is stronger than rabbit style, but its just not appropriate for a rabbit. If a rabbit starts acting like a tiger, he won't last long at all.

Forgive the Child like metaphor, but I thought it may be the best way to get through to people who still don't get it.

****, I'm doing the debate again.... Gene please ban me.

So are you saying TCMA is a way for week, timid people to experience martial arts by dressing in ancient chinese clothes and playing with fake weaponry? I'm OK with that. I applaud that.

Don't post footage of a fool on a roof and somehow relate it to martial proficiency. Same for lying on a bed of nails. Hitting your head against a wall. Doing golden turtle posture.

Personally, martial arts is about fighting. It's learning the technique, it's gaining the conditioning and physical and mental toughness to meet violence with more, better controlled violence. That's what martial arts are.

Race car driving is about racing fast cars around the track. It's not for everyone. My niece has a battery operated SUV toy car she rides in that I can out pace walking backwards..... don't call it race car driving. Don;t call di(king around martial arts training.

You either race cars or you don't.
You either train martial arts or you don't.

[Ray Pina]

Considering the history of Sanda/sanshou I am not sure how much credit TCMA can take.
They certainly can't take MORE credit than the other systems from which techniques and training were borrowed from.

The Chinese are actually very smart and I respect them.... it's the stupid Americans that buy the Shaolin Kung Fu the same way they buy the fake brand name bags in Chinatown. Cheep crap that fails.

The Chinese are actually smart. Just like they're taking apart our drone that "landed" in Iran, they took western boxing and kick boxing and Judo and Sambo. They took what worked and place the Made in China logo on it = San Da

They're training Gracie BJJ in Shanghai. I go every year. I'll be there next month.

China will produce an international MMA champ eventually.... it won't look like Wing Chun. Not because they refined it so much. It's because it will be MMA: kick boxing with wrestling and Judo.

My other issue is, why is kick boxing viewed as a dirty subject around here. tons of great technique. MMA is all about using nothing but the best techniques..... why would this be resisted? Wing CHun is kick boxing. Hung Gar is kick boxing..... or used to be. Maybe. Some say. < ------ been dead to long to guarantee.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Considering the history of Sanda/sanshou I am not sure how much credit TCMA can take.
They certainly can't take MORE credit than the other systems from which techniques and training were borrowed from.

I really believe San Shou comes down to three main components of mixture 1. Western Boxing 2. Various TCMA 3. Shuai Jiao

The theory of true Sanda was the four areas of fighting 1. Da-Punches, Elbow, Upper Body Strikes 2. Ti-Kicks and Lower Body Strikes 3. Shuai- Throwing/Grappling techniques 4. Na- Seizing or submission techniques

I have always felt that most of the hand strikes and punching was western boxing, kicks were from traditional Kung Fu with some Thai influence, wrestling from Shuai Jiao and even some Greco Roman, and the submission from Chin Na techniques and various jiujitsu. Considering the sport version generally does not allow ground grappling, the last one is moot for the sport version. However, with the MMA emergance, it will be utilized more obviously.

[wenshu]

mostly derived of Judo and Sambo players a

Shuai Jiao is a hell of a lot older than Judo and Sambo. It has similar stances, movements and training methods to many of the styles in your little list there and could easily be argued to be traditional chinese martial art.

I would say your bias is blatant and lazy but I'm too distracted by your poor imitation motivational speaker "reach your higher selves" jibberish.

Your whole world is this <-> fucking big.

[Lucas]

Considering the history of Sanda/sanshou I am not sure how much credit TCMA can take.
They certainly can't take MORE credit than the other systems from which techniques and training were borrowed from.

thats why its important to actually look at the fighters bio, imo. from there many times you can learn what the make up of their sanda is. for instance i saw one that claimed shaolin kungfu for his sanda training...thats pretty straight forward if you ask me.

[sanjuro_ronin]

So are you saying TCMA is a way for week, timid people to experience martial arts by dressing in ancient chinese clothes and playing with fake weaponry? I'm OK with that. I applaud that.

Don't post footage of a fool on a roof and somehow relate it to martial proficiency. Same for lying on a bed of nails. Hitting your head against a wall. Doing golden turtle posture.

Personally, martial arts is about fighting. It's learning the technique, it's gaining the conditioning and physical and mental toughness to meet violence with more, better controlled violence. That's what martial arts are.

Race car driving is about racing fast cars around the track. It's not for everyone. My niece has a battery operated SUV toy car she rides in that I can out pace walking backwards..... don't call it race car driving. Don;t call di(king around martial arts training.

You either race cars or you don't.
You either train martial arts or you don't.

You are being too black and white dude.
The fact is that TCMA do NOT (just) attract fighters, the vast majority do NOT go to a TCMA to fight ( although they may go to learn to protect themselves).
No one goes:
I want to be a pro fighter, I am joining a wing chun school.
No, people that want to be fighters join fight gyms.
Sure that is changing a bit with Sanda, but right now only WITHIN the TCMA community ( and what does that tell you?).
Outside the TCMA community people that want to be fighters go into MMA, Boxing or MT,
People that want to compete in a MA sport go into Judo or TKD or Wrestling or Sambo ( depending on their community).
That leaves the rest.

Sure TCMA has fighters, but those are the guys that CHOSE TCMA and became or already were fighters and that is a very small minority.
The same can be said for the majority of Karate styles and so many other MA too.

[Peaceful Orchid]

Sanjuro Pointed out the debate might better be called Fighters Vs. Non-Fighters. I think thats very true. Ray, why does everyone have to be a fighter? The world doesn't work that way. ANd don't non-fighters have a right to study some MA as well? They don't want to do the hardcore stuff, it will also not help them become better fighters because they are psychologically not fighters, it doesn't matter what skills they practice.

Not everyone needs to be a fighter. The problem almost always starts when the non-fighters tell the fighters what "works" when it's pretty obvious they have no clue what really works and what doesn't work.

[Ray Pina]

Your whole world is this <-> fucking big.

That last line is funny because I just got over jet jag. In the past 3 weeks I;ve been in Hannover, Germany, New York City and Las Vegas. Next month I got to Shanghai