身 法 - shēn fǎ - Body Methods

[mooyingmantis]

I was reading posts over at the Mantis Quarterly forum and found something very insightful and interesting posted by Brendan Tunks. I decided to drop it here for discussion:

".... Yantai QX may appear quite different in comparison to say classic MH or Yantai TJMH, however, QX in Dalian, Shenyang, Qingdao, Shanghai, Hong Kong and Malaysia looks a little different again (and none identical to the other). Not all of the descendants of Wang Yunsheng express the same characteristics, though supposedly born from the same source.

My personal opinion is that regional flavour dictates more than ancestry. For example, QX in Qingdao looks more like Qingdao Haojia TJMH then it does Yantai QX. At the same time Qingdao HJTJMH looks more like Qingdao QX than it does Yantai HJTJMH. In Dongbei region the differences between the outward appearances of 2 major sects are even smaller. I agree that in general QX does favour linear force, however some families of MH/TJMH also do. For example, TJMH in Qingdao, Dongbei and Beijing don't show some of the exaggerated twisting/corkscrew mechanics of some Yantai TJMH and also employ long-range linear force."

T

One thing I have found interesting in mantis is the various methods of shenfa (body methods) employed by the different families of mantis.

[B.Tunks]

I made some pretty broad generalisations in that post to express my point, so I should probably add the following: 'In some instances' (i.e - In some instances QX in Qingdao looks like such and such, TJMH in Yantai looks like such and such, etc)...

Anyway, my point is that there is more grey than black and white and that there is a lot of cross-pollination, shared flavours and combined influences. It's not so cut and dried.

BT

[mooyingmantis]

I made some pretty broad generalisations in that post to express my point, so I should probably add the following: 'In some instances' (i.e - In some instances QX in Qingdao looks like such and such, TJMH in Yantai looks like such and such, etc)...

Anyway, my point is that there is more grey than black and white and that there is a lot of cross-pollination, shared flavours and combined influences. It's not so cut and dried.

BT

Understood, but I believe it still contained some very interesting observations.

[xiao yao]

Thats an interesting topic you brought up, the two teachers I have trained with both have very very different shen fa:

qu hai (student of zhang bing dou) - wide open stances, knees pushing into the ground to drive the stance forward. concaved chest, rounded back. body often leans forward. arms extend to their fullest.

zhou zhen dong (cui shou shan lineage) - more compact stances, knees close together to protect the groin. spine held erect, tension held in the lower back muscles and forearms. all movements are initiated from lower back. arms kept slightly bent, elbows in centre. shoulders clamped down.

[mooyingmantis]

Will,
Excellent examples!

[Michael Dasargo]

IMO, optimal shen fa is contingent on the boxers physical characteristics.

Consider this:

• power = mass x velocity
• damage is finite, so there is a threshold where power may be excessive
• In fighting, power must be balanced with efficiency of speed/quickness. That means, your technique can't take all day to hit it's mark.
• The purpose of Shen Fa is to produce maximal power and quickness

Now let's look at body types:

• Shorter, lighter relative to most people
• shorter, heavier relative to most people
• taller, lighter than most people
• taller, heavier than most people

Although anybody can benefit from the various Shen Fa, the context of size relativity reveals that Shen Fa selection may provide optimized methods given the circumstance.



Shorter, lighter people may benefit most from compact bursting power.

Shorter heavier people may benefit most from compact rotational power.
This is based on the sound notion that if the opponent has greater reach, fight in the inside



Taller lighter people may benefit more from 6/4 bursting power (ie xingyi) to keep the opponent outside, or longer rotational power (tongbei) to control the inside fight.

Taller heavier people may benefit more from compact bursting power. This is because the heavier body mass requires little movement to generate damaging force, while the compact movements minimize openings/vulnerabilities.
Rotational power may result in wobble often seen in heavyweights. While there are exceptions, wobble is observed more often than not with taller/heavier people using rotational power.

When it comes to Shen Fa, size matters.

Mike

[mooyingmantis]

Mike,

I think your definition of shenfa at MQ was excellent!

Shen Fa is about adding body weight to your technique resulting in added density to your strikes, locks, and throws.
Mike

When it comes to Shen Fa, size matters.
Mike

Size matters when it comes to power generation. However, proper shenfa is proper shenfa regardless of size.

[Michael Dasargo]

Agreed.

However Shen Fa in relation to the body weight, reach, and relative shoulder height of the opponent may increase or decrease the effectiveness of certain Shen Fa methods.

Footwork effects Shen Fa. If you are taller than your opponent, then Duo Gang/Cuo Gang methods may benefit you more. If you are shorter than your opponent, then Beng Bu methods may benefit you more.

IMO, there is a reason why there are different footwork/Shen Fa methods in the early sets of TLQ.
Mike

[mooyingmantis]

Agreed.

However Shen Fa in relation to the body weight, reach, and relative shoulder height of the opponent may increase or decrease the effectiveness of certain Shen Fa methods.

Footwork effects Shen Fa. If you are taller than your opponent, then Duo Gang/Cuo Gang methods may benefit you more. If you are shorter than your opponent, then Beng Bu methods may benefit you more.

IMO, there is a reason why there are different footwork/Shen Fa methods in the early sets of TLQ.
Mike

Great points!

[-N-]

[*]power = mass x velocity

Mass x velocity = momentum

Mass x acceleration x velocity = power

But yeah, you can't take all day

[Michael Dasargo]

Mass x velocity = momentum

Mass x acceleration x velocity = power

But yeah, you can't take all day

ha! I just got learnt!