Deconstructing Kung Fu

[MightyB]

Some other threads got me to thinking about this -

Prior to 1880, JuJitsu was just a collection of favorite techniques practiced by thugs (described this way by Kano himself - you look up the articles). It was associated with criminals and the Yakuza and really wasn't something that a civilized person would do. He changed all that by finding a single unifying principle "ju" and then codified the main body of techniques and Kata. He took out the most lethal moves and yada yada yada... Olympic sport.

I say we reverse engineer TCMA starting with analyzing forms.

My theory is that a TCMA style was a collection of favorite dirty tricks. Look at any form. Even if you perfect the whole form, out of that form of say some 50 techniques, you'll probably only find 3 or 4 that are personally applicable to you. Those would be your "go to" techniques. If you perfect those techniques against a living opponent, I think you'll find your true martial ability growing in leaps and bounds.

Thoughts and discussion.

[RD'S Alias - 1A]

What sux, is that there are way too many lines, where this is the only way to drive applications from your forms.

Thankfll there are still lineages who teach these uses.

Fight first, forms later. That is the old way.

[MightyB]

Fight first, forms later. That is the old way.

Good point. When my teacher described the creation of forms, he said that the old masters would beat the crap out of each other and then try to analyze what they did. They'd then take their favorites and put those into a sequence for preservation and transmission. I think this is important to keep in mind.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

One of the main problems is not so much that forms are taught and practiced, it is when they are taught as the main course of a Kung Fu program. Basics should be taught above all, the four elements of chinese martial arts. Da (Punches, elbows, upper body striking) Ti (Kicks, knees, lower body striking Shuai (Throws, clinch technique) Na (Seizing, trappling, submissions).

Also, blocking, parrying, trapping, and sticky hand technique should be taught, along with bag work, mitt work, two person drills, and most importantly freestyle sparring and grappling.

You Know Who said it best on here once, teach your students how to fight first. Then, they have their whole lives to learn and do forms.

[MightyB]

One of the main problems is not so much that forms are taught and practiced, it is when they are taught as the main course of a Kung Fu program. Basics should be taught above all, the four elements of chinese martial arts. Da (Punches, elbows, upper body striking) Ti (Kicks, knees, lower body striking Shuai (Throws, clinch technique) Na (Seizing, trappling, submissions).

Also, blocking, parrying, trapping, and sticky hand technique should be taught, along with bag work, mitt work, two person drills, and most importantly freestyle sparring and grappling.

You Know Who said it best on here once, teach your students how to fight first. Then, they have their whole lives to learn and do forms.

but to me the forms give insight into the "dirty tricks" of a style. I agree that you shouldn't overemphasize their importance, but neither should they be too de-emphasized. Otherwise you get no variance or "style" between fighting arts. The trick is finding the balance in how to approach forms practice. Learn it, analyze, apply. But where do you start? Do you start with a kickboxing / san da approach and then introduce style through form? IDK...

[Iron_Eagle_76]

[QUOTE=MightyB;1159020]but to me the forms give insight into the "dirty tricks" of a style. I agree that you shouldn't overemphasize their importance, but neither should they be too de-emphasized. Otherwise you get no variance or "style" between fighting arts. The trick is finding the balance in how to approach forms practice. Learn it, analyze, apply. But where do you start? Do you start with a kickboxing / san da approach and then introduce style through form? IDK...[/QUOTE]


This could be one approach, and I don't think there is anything wrong with that if the instructor chooses to go this route. But I still believe a simple emphasis on basics is where you start at. It's funny because everyone likes to distinguish kickboxing/Sanda training and Kung Fu training, when to me they are one and the same.

Kung Fu should involve doing bag work, mitts, shield kicks, along with sparring with equipment so that the students can learn to give and take shots in a safe manner. All combat sports do this, boxing, kickboxing, Muay Thai, MMA, ect. I fail to see the distinction and quite honestly I feel Kung Fu practioners think it is some kind of sin to spar like a kickboxer, when in truth, that is what you are going to look like with equipment on.

You can also spar with fingerless gloves which will enable you to do open hand strikes such as palms, ridgehands, tiger claws, and several other strikes found in Kung Fu that cannot be done with the use of boxing gloves. This is why I have my students spar both ways, one to develop power and realism, the other to refine technique.

[Iron_Eagle_76]

Here is a video of two of my students sparring recently. Both these young ladies have about six months training with me, no previous experience. The advantage to having equipment is that they can practice at a harder contact level which is essential for devlopment. I also have them spar as I said with fingerless MMA gloves for devloping open hand striking and trappling/sticky hands.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rFpFs...2&feature=plcp

[Subitai]

Some other threads got me to thinking about this -

I say we reverse engineer TCMA starting with analyzing forms.

My theory is that a TCMA style was a collection of favorite dirty tricks. Look at any form. Even if you perfect the whole form, out of that form of say some 50 techniques, you'll probably only find 3 or 4 that are personally applicable to you. Those would be your "go to" techniques. If you perfect those techniques against a living opponent, I think you'll find your true martial ability growing in leaps and bounds.

I think you are exactly on the right track MightyB.

Many people look at a form and see a ROLO-Deck (index cards) of techniques that are possible. But there is no way in hell that they can "Sift though" all those techniques, pick one and then apply it in the same time as a punch for example.

The more experienced you are... the more you realize that you only need a few entries and a few counters in the begining. Then if you stick with it long enough, the other methods open themselves up to you as you mature.

I go further and break them down into primary, secondary and so forth type. Everyone has thier OWN WAY...or way of NO WAY, haha.

But anyway, the only thing people believe nowawdays is if you make a YouTube and prove it... short of actually meeting up and touching hands ie.

Keep on keepin' on man,
"O"

[Pork Chop]

But where do you start? Do you start with a kickboxing / san da approach and then introduce style through form? IDK...

Aside from Judo, you do mantis, right?
Is mantis really mantis without ng-lou-choy or dil sau?
Maybe, maybe not, it's debatable but it might be a tough argument.

Breaking down dil sau (the "ng" in "ng-lou-choy" if I'm not mistaken) - what is it?
Typically it's intercepting, redirecting, and hooking an incoming, straight-line attack.
In other words, it's a counter.

In order to counter, you need to be provided an input.
In order to learn proper countering, you need to have someone providing you proper input.
Given this era and your location, what's going to be the most common (and proficient), straight line fist attack?...Probably a boxing jab and/or cross (and by extension: mma, sanshou, muay thai, etc because they train it).
At the very least you'll want to learn how to properly execute that technique so your partner can counter it realistically.

There also may need to be some re-tooling in order to make it work.
Bareknuckle styles tend to build attacks and counters based off the body as a target; head shots weren't quite as common as since the advent of gloves - so you'll probably have to raise it to cover the head.
Plus, you're probably going to want to figure out how to do it with gloves for safety reasons and if you have any aspirations at the sport side of things.
Don't even get me started on the tweaking the technique for committed vs non-committed attacks (jabs vs crosses)...

How far do you take it then?
Do you train basic boxing/sanshou/muaythai/mma in its entirety first and then add your flavor?
Do you borrow the offense from the common sport stuff and teach your own defense from the get go?

Those questions are where it all gets difficult.
Your end product may look significantly different than your form and then you have the wonderful prospect of being accused of doing "sloppy kickboxing" by someone who never even bothered to put in the effort to retool their stuff for modern scenarios.

[Pork Chop]

Here is a video of two of my students sparring recently.

Chick with black gloves fights like a dude.
Kept thinking in the back of my head - "turn your hips over on those kicks!", but I understand that might not be your style.
Good clip.

[MightyB]

Aside from Judo, you do mantis, right?
Is mantis really mantis without ng-lou-choy or dil sau?
Maybe, maybe not, it's debatable but it might be a tough argument.

Breaking down dil sau (the "ng" in "ng-lou-choy" if I'm not mistaken) - what is it?
Typically it's intercepting, redirecting, and hooking an incoming, straight-line attack.
In other words, it's a counter.

I think ou lou choy is the defining "dirty trick" of mantis.

[Pork Chop]

I think ou lou choy is the defining "dirty trick" of mantis.

That's pretty much what I'm talking about
The next step would be putting some gloves on and having him feed proper jabs/crosses at realistic speed while the receiver gets to work on that.

[MightyB]

That's pretty much what I'm talking about
The next step would be putting some gloves on and having him feed proper jabs/crosses at realistic speed while the receiver gets to work on that.

That's Dave - he's not a striker at all, and has no interest - just a grappler, but he was willing to pose as one for the camera.

One of my biggest problems and always has been is finding sparring partners (even in Judo). That's the one thing I do like about BJJ - no shortage there. That's where I go when I'm getting ready for competition.

[-N-]

That's pretty much what I'm talking about
The next step would be putting some gloves on and having him feed proper jabs/crosses at realistic speed while the receiver gets to work on that.

Ou lou choy does not have to be in response to an attack. You can initiate your own attack with it.

Don't use it against a jab.

[Pork Chop]

Ou lou choy does not have to be in response to an attack. You can initiate your own attack with it.

Don't use it against a jab.

Admittedly, I'm not expert with mantis, just had some experience with it.
I'm really curious to learn how ou lou choy can be used to lead off an attack.
In B's video, he had a cool example of leading off with a jab and then when the other guy parries, flowing into the ou-lou-choy as soon as contact is made.

As far as defending a jab - yeah, a full ou-lou-choy would probably unrealistic; but you could probably get away with a modified dil sau to use as a parry.