Alan Orr Questions 4 - Chain Punching

[Yoshiyahu]

I agree if your opponent can regain his posture from concussive chain punches then you need to be able to switch in the thick of things.

Personally you can train chain punches as 'Finishing techniques or entry technique(works well on weaker opponents).

I perfer to blast my opponent with a meridan punch first while or pak da or lop da to open his gates an stun him for a second before intiating linked chain punches.


When I start to cycle of continous chainpunches the idea in mind is to completely keep you compromise, off balance and hurt you. I not randomly hitting your head with link chains. My punches are bashing in your nose each and every time. As you move back i move in still punching the center of your face and hitting that Nose.

FWIW I thought the best part of Alans clip was when he mentions the practicality in function of chained strikes being akin to the speedball training of a boxer. Learning static drills of lien wan kuen to develop a habit is one thing, and being able to apply this method in the thick of it is another. I agree 100%

But I will add that there seems to be confusion about the language implication with this sort of fistwork. Not so much from Alan, but from some of the posts here. 'Lien Wan Kuen' implies that the fists are linked and revolving continuously, More of a 'stunning' method for fast hands. If, like Alan, you are well versed enough to react to an aggressive fighter and continue to link up these fists you are doing something right but this isn't 'only' Lien Wan because there is an element of receiving and giving pressure too. FME and learning we referred to this method as Seep Dai and this is exactly what Alan acheives here, continuing to express his Lien Wan fist work while receiving continuous attacks in different ways.

This is called Seep Dai Lien Wan Kuen.

So to be clear on the 'power' thing. If you are charging through the defense continuously, with pretty much no regard for what's coming back atcha, this is called Lien Wan Chong Kuen. If you are stop/starting (but still quite continous) like in the clip you ar doing Seep Dai Lien Wan Kuen.

Both are simple ways of expressing the Wing Chun Fist, and both are present in Alans clip just not the only methods available to us, as (I think) Yoshi was also trying to explain.

[wingchunIan]

I think we may be talking a bit past each other or maybe about different things...allow me to clarify:
To repeat this part because it is crucial:
Boxers are taught to go in, hit hard and often and get out BECAUSE it is assumed that the other guys is gonna hit back and hit back hard.
WC does NOT advocate the "get in, hit and get out" strategy and this is quite plain in chain striking IMO.

I don't recall any WC principle that advocates going in, hitting and getting out.
Do you?

can't say i agree with this statement. Only boxers who have no power are trained in this way. Every boxing coach I've ever trained under emphasised the need to hurt the opponent and then stay on top of him with relentless combinations, the only caveat was taking care not to "gas" which is only relevant when wearing gloves as not many people can take more than a couple of well placed bare knuckle blows. There are plenty of top boxers who equally adopt a strategy of staying in the pocket because it suits their physical and mental attributes.
I'd agree though that the WC I learn / teach doesn't advocate a get in and get out approach, as having done all of the hard work to close the distance and get into range (typically inside many strikers prefered range) the last thing I want to do is bounce back out again to have to do it all again.

[sanjuro_ronin]

can't say i agree with this statement. Only boxers who have no power are trained in this way. Every boxing coach I've ever trained under emphasised the need to hurt the opponent and then stay on top of him with relentless combinations, the only caveat was taking care not to "gas" which is only relevant when wearing gloves as not many people can take more than a couple of well placed bare knuckle blows. There are plenty of top boxers who equally adopt a strategy of staying in the pocket because it suits their physical and mental attributes.
I'd agree though that the WC I learn / teach doesn't advocate a get in and get out approach, as having done all of the hard work to close the distance and get into range (typically inside many strikers prefered range) the last thing I want to do is bounce back out again to have to do it all again.

You know that "get out" doesn't mean "get back" or "move back" right?
It means hit and get to an area that you can't get counter punched at, like Tyson, Leonard, Jones and many others did.

[Wu Wei Wu]

Up the pressure and this is chain punching;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgoP37DVNSs

Suki

[Alan Orr]

Up the pressure and this is chain punching;


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZgoP37DVNSs

Suki

No this is a stronger opponent beating up a weaker opponent.

[Alan Orr]

You get an idea of why we spend so many hours conditioning a punching elbow.

Don't put all your eggs in the same basket.

[Yoshiyahu]

So you think the chain punch is basically a useless tool.

Don't put all your eggs in the same basket.

[Alan Orr]

So you think the chain punch is basically a useless tool.

I never said that at all. Why do people always post what 'I think'. Please ask me question or ask me, but don't said telling me what I think.

Chain punching is great training and conditioning. Its good for learning line and elbow control and position changes. But to use as a main attack in chi sao for example would be limited, as you would be just wasting what the main point of chi sao is all about. To be able to keep pressure on your opponent and control them. If you are just chain punching at them you may control or overwhelm a weaker less skilled opponent - but that not developing anything new. Being able to read and counter as you attack is a developing skill. All I am saying is a lot of guys just chain punch without any defence and it becomes a bad habit. That means in sparring they end up attacking with chain punches and become very open for counters.

Also I see chain punch as a chain or link of punches ( which is what I said on the clip) so it can be in one line or many lines of attack. I would maybe hit 1-3 in the same line if it was really open and the opponent was off balance, otherwise I would punch 1-6 on different lines and with different beats - in order to keep control and hold a good defence at the same time.

[Yoshiyahu]

Im sorry i stand corrected. I wrote the statement wrong. Sometimes I word things statements when Im really meaning it in a question form. but yes I by no means meant to asssume that you think that chain punch is an useless tool. I was simply asking a question because you keep saying that chain punch in general doesn't work on skilled fighters. Now chainpunch is not first or even the main technique we use. But we still use it. Its very effective if you know when to use it or slip it in as I say.

Infact we believe in the FLOW or linking attacks together in a continous motions from multiple vectors,directions, angles etc. We dont just chain down the middle with downward circle punches. We strike from everwhere while taking the centerline an controlling it with entry techniques like pak da, jum da, lop da, and jut da for starters.


Also let me reintrate. Your explanation of the principles behind chain punch is right on the money. I totally agree with you with people who only use chain punch and front kick as their wing chun techniques. Im glad you have videos that deal with using wing chun in a mma enviroment. But I feel that some of your adaptation may be watering down the wing chun or totally changing it from its purpose. I think your innovations may work well against Trained MMA person with some BJJ skill. But a season street fighter i dont know. Just because you practice Martial Arts, WC, or BJJ or MMA everyday and beat some top contenders doesn't mean some thug street fighter can't mop your top. Especially if thats all he been doing since he was eight years.


I try to adapt my WC to the street fighting scenario because thats all I encounter when i started learning WC. In fact thats the reason why i learned WC in the first place to deal with a street fighter. AS for MMA. If i was to train...i think Muay Thai Kicks, and elbows, Boxing Punches and strategies, and BJJ submissions and escapes and redirections are best suited for MMA. You can use some techniques from WC. But the whole format of WC is to hurt your opponent bad really fast so he cant continue to fight. In a MMA bout its about superior endurance, superior stamina and superior conditioning whens nine times out of ten. Just my opinion.


Both fighters are basically defensive fighters waiting patiently for an opening. In the streets Fist just start going. A person wants to fight you. He just rushes you or you rush him. No feints, No waiting, No bobbing and weaving or covering in the streets just hit hit hit. I think WC spring bridge arms and flow are good for that...Controlling the opponent so you can hit him at the same time is great effective tool.


I guess where we differ is I see Chain Punching as both a conditioning and training tool as well as actual technique to be utilize by the principle it teaches. I see the chain punch as tool that is best used in conjunction with your moving horse. To keep your opponent flailing. But I dont think it will work all the time. You need to be in posistion and have an opening to apply it.

I never said that at all. Why do people always post what 'I think'. Please ask me question or ask me, but don't said telling me what I think.

Chain punching is great training and conditioning. Its good for learning line and elbow control and position changes. But to use as a main attack in chi sao for example would be limited, as you would be just wasting what the main point of chi sao is all about. To be able to keep pressure on your opponent and control them. If you are just chain punching at them you may control or overwhelm a weaker less skilled opponent - but that not developing anything new. Being able to read and counter as you attack is a developing skill. All I am saying is a lot of guys just chain punch without any defence and it becomes a bad habit. That means in sparring they end up attacking with chain punches and become very open for counters.

Also I see chain punch as a chain or link of punches ( which is what I said on the clip) so it can be in one line or many lines of attack. I would maybe hit 1-3 in the same line if it was really open and the opponent was off balance, otherwise I would punch 1-6 on different lines and with different beats - in order to keep control and hold a good defence at the same time.

[Phil Redmond]

There's an old saying that goes, the best way to beat a WC guy is with round punches.
Alan's clip explained why.

[YouKnowWho]

There's an old saying that goes, the best way to beat a WC guy is with round punches.
Alan's clip explained why.

A 45 degree downward hook punch can deflect all your straight line punches.

- The straight line can be used to defeat the circular curve. The circular curve can be used to defeat the straingt line.
- The single can be used to defeat double. The double can be used to defeat single.
- ...

TCMA has a lot of "contradiction" like this. It all depends on "strategy".

[Phil Redmond]

A 45 degree downward hook punch can deflect all your straight line punches.

- The straight line can be used to defeat the circular curve. The circular curve can be used to defeat the straingt line.
- The single can be used to defeat double. The double can be used to defeat single.
- ...

TCMA has a lot of "contradiction" like this. It all depends on "strategy".

Thumbs up on that one.

[Alan Orr]

Im sorry i stand corrected. I wrote the statement wrong. Sometimes I word things statements when Im really meaning it in a question form. but yes I by no means meant to asssume that you think that chain punch is an useless tool. I was simply asking a question because you keep saying that chain punch in general doesn't work on skilled fighters. Now chainpunch is not first or even the main technique we use. But we still use it. Its very effective if you know when to use it or slip it in as I say.

Infact we believe in the FLOW or linking attacks together in a continous motions from multiple vectors,directions, angles etc. We dont just chain down the middle with downward circle punches. We strike from everwhere while taking the centerline an controlling it with entry techniques like pak da, jum da, lop da, and jut da for starters.


Also let me reintrate. Your explanation of the principles behind chain punch is right on the money. I totally agree with you with people who only use chain punch and front kick as their wing chun techniques. Im glad you have videos that deal with using wing chun in a mma enviroment. But I feel that some of your adaptation may be watering down the wing chun or totally changing it from its purpose. I think your innovations may work well against Trained MMA person with some BJJ skill. But a season street fighter i dont know. Just because you practice Martial Arts, WC, or BJJ or MMA everyday and beat some top contenders doesn't mean some thug street fighter can't mop your top. Especially if thats all he been doing since he was eight years.


I try to adapt my WC to the street fighting scenario because thats all I encounter when i started learning WC. In fact thats the reason why i learned WC in the first place to deal with a street fighter. AS for MMA. If i was to train...i think Muay Thai Kicks, and elbows, Boxing Punches and strategies, and BJJ submissions and escapes and redirections are best suited for MMA. You can use some techniques from WC. But the whole format of WC is to hurt your opponent bad really fast so he cant continue to fight. In a MMA bout its about superior endurance, superior stamina and superior conditioning whens nine times out of ten. Just my opinion.


Both fighters are basically defensive fighters waiting patiently for an opening. In the streets Fist just start going. A person wants to fight you. He just rushes you or you rush him. No feints, No waiting, No bobbing and weaving or covering in the streets just hit hit hit. I think WC spring bridge arms and flow are good for that...Controlling the opponent so you can hit him at the same time is great effective tool.


I guess where we differ is I see Chain Punching as both a conditioning and training tool as well as actual technique to be utilize by the principle it teaches. I see the chain punch as tool that is best used in conjunction with your moving horse. To keep your opponent flailing. But I dont think it will work all the time. You need to be in posistion and have an opening to apply it.

I understand what you may' think' , but I can say 100% that nothing watered down in my wing chun. I teach everyday people who have defended well with our system on the street, fighters that use it in the ring/cage and lots of door and security personal who tell me they have never seen a system so deep and street effective. All opinions, but tested ones. So we are far from watered down. If it was watered down it would never work at all.

This whole idea that street fighters are tougher of better that skilled MMA fighters is a whole other debate. I train for both as most tough street fighters are now doing MMA! lol

You are again telling what I think about chain punching. I could have put up a clip on chain punching that would be hours long. It was just a few minutes to get an idea out. Please don't feel the need to explain anything to me. If you want to post clips to watch then great.

[Alan Orr]

There's an old saying that goes, the best way to beat a WC guy is with round punches.
Alan's clip explained why.

Very true Phil

[kung fu fighter]

I don't create a bridge, my opponent creates one for me when trying to defend himself against my attacks. When I strike my opponent, he has Basicly 4 options.

1. He does nothing and get hit
2. His hands or feet comes in contact with mine as he tries to cover up, block, or reach for my limbs.
3. He evades my line of attack
4. he strikes back