Ip Man and his Code of Conduct

[LoneTiger108]

I just thought that this may be a good time to post this here considering the amount of constant rule breaking that seems to be happening in our wide Wing Chun circle these days...

I would also like to hear from anyone who has more or different sets of Mo Duk, because I have and I understand that this early piece was specifically used by Ip Man to promote his public school in Hong Kong, and it was shared with the majority of his students who we have traces of today. A more Traditional version exists FME.

I have no interest in hearing from anyone who couldn't give a sh!t about this sorth of thing, so I'm not expecting too many responses!

Here's an example from Sifu Samuel Kwoks site



And here is the same example from Sifu Augustine Fong

[sanjuro_ronin]

Ideals strived for are not always ideal achieved.
For some reason WC tends to attract the " I am right you are wrong because My Sifu said so" crowd.
While almost every MA has its "code of conduct", we typically can count on "one hand" those that exemplifiy it.
That is why they "stick out".

[WingChunABQ]

For some reason WC tends to attract the " I am right you are wrong because My Sifu said so" crowd.

Yeah, it's weird. It's like debating religion or something.

Frankly I think a lot of the bickering is facepalm-worthy.

[LoneTiger108]

Well, what I am saying is that "Ip Man said THIS!"

If you have anything more to add to the conversation, please do, but why go over old ground and start all the bickering in the first place??

And Sanjuro!! ****!! I should close this thread straight away because you have posted here lol! If you aint a Wing Chun student, what do you care??? The Hung Gar you so readily promote on the forum has it's fair share of 'face-palm' moments too wouldn't you say??

[sanjuro_ronin]

Well, what I am saying is that "Ip Man said THIS!"

If you have anything more to add to the conversation, please do, but why go over old ground and start all the bickering in the first place??

And Sanjuro!! ****!! I should close this thread straight away because you have posted here lol! If you aint a Wing Chun student, what do you care??? The Hung Gar you so readily promote on the forum has it's fair share of 'face-palm' moments too wouldn't you say??

I put in my time in WC, as you know but you are correct, Hung Ga has its moments of "Icon nutriding".
Ip Man's code of conduct is nothing different than many others but the fact that He felt that one was needed in WC does, perhaps, speak to the issues that WC has and continues to have.
I think that if people did truly follow this code ( or any other) that there would be more CIVIL discussions but there still would be discussions and debate and diagreements.
Maybe there would be a more "live and let live" attitude would would be great.
Personally I don't see WHY WC guys are so anal retentive about their art, truly.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1160370]I put in my time in WC, as you know but you are correct, Hung Ga has its moments of "Icon nutriding".
Ip Man's code of conduct is nothing different than many others but the fact that He felt that one was needed in WC does, perhaps, speak to the issues that WC has and continues to have.
I think that if people did truly follow this code ( or any other) that there would be more CIVIL discussions but there still would be discussions and debate and diagreements.
Maybe there would be a more "live and let live" attitude would would be great.
Personally I don't see WHY WC guys are so anal retentive about their art, truly.[/QUOTE
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Most good wc guys are not anal retentive. Internet forums give a greatly distorted view of reality.
Most good wc guys are NOT participants on this forum.

A code of conduct is a normative ideal for a group.There is always a gap between an ideal and achievement- such as freedom of speech and being arrested for exercising it or getting punched in the mouth for engaging in it.


Even internet wc disagreements are mild compared to many dog breed specific chat lists

joy chaudhuri

[sanjuro_ronin]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1160380]

I put in my time in WC, as you know but you are correct, Hung Ga has its moments of "Icon nutriding".
Ip Man's code of conduct is nothing different than many others but the fact that He felt that one was needed in WC does, perhaps, speak to the issues that WC has and continues to have.
I think that if people did truly follow this code ( or any other) that there would be more CIVIL discussions but there still would be discussions and debate and diagreements.
Maybe there would be a more "live and let live" attitude would would be great.
Personally I don't see WHY WC guys are so anal retentive about their art, truly.[/QUOTE
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Most good wc guys are not anal retentive. Internet forums give a greatly distorted view of reality.
Most good wc guys are NOT participants on this forum.

A code of conduct is a normative ideal for a group.There is always a gap between an ideal and achievement- such as freedom of speech and being arrested for exercising it or getting punched in the mouth for engaging in it.


Even internet wc disagreements are mild compared to many dog breed specific chat lists

joy chaudhuri

You are probably right Joy and yes, internet forums do tend to give a distorted view of reality.
That said, why DO we have such issues CONSISTENTLY on the WC forum?

[LoneTiger108]

Ip Man's code of conduct is nothing different than many others but the fact that He felt that one was needed in WC does, perhaps, speak to the issues that WC has and continues to have.

Now that, imo, is a very good point.

I've heard a few variations on why this specific code was used, and it wasn't so much a 'Club Code' it was the rules for his own Seniors to abide by and pass on. I think this was easy to manage whilst he was alive, but once gone it just went crazy because brother was competing against brother. Rule No. 3!

After looking into older rule sets, this one particularly speaks in Confician tones, of which Ip Man, and especially his eldest son Ip Chun, were brought up on. Prior to the Revolution Martial Arts was a little more Buddhist/Taoist in nature and so you may have had a rule to 'Remove' rather than 'Participate' in Society. Nowadays, I think most arts out there are so much more open but still maintain and preserve these older teachings fme.

I have always believed that the Wing Chun student who couldn't care less for cultural learning (Man Fa) will only ever grasp the basic external structure of Martial Arts. The commercial engine as it is today. Those who are searching for more fulfillment from their years dedication tend to, at some point, look deeper into the language for starters and this is a very good starting point. Wouldn't you agree?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Now that, imo, is a very good point.

I've heard a few variations on why this specific code was used, and it wasn't so much a 'Club Code' it was the rules for his own Seniors to abide by and pass on. I think this was easy to manage whilst he was alive, but once gone it just went crazy because brother was competing against brother. Rule No. 3!

After looking into older rule sets, this one particularly speaks in Confician tones, of which Ip Man, and especially his eldest son Ip Chun, were brought up on. Prior to the Revolution Martial Arts was a little more Buddhist/Taoist in nature and so you may have had a rule to 'Remove' rather than 'Participate' in Society. Nowadays, I think most arts out there are so much more open but still maintain and preserve these older teachings fme.

I have always believed that the Wing Chun student who couldn't care less for cultural learning (Man Fa) will only ever grasp the basic external structure of Martial Arts. The commercial engine as it is today. Those who are searching for more fulfillment from their years dedication tend to, at some point, look deeper into the language for starters and this is a very good starting point. Wouldn't you agree?

Have you read the works of Brian Kennedy and others in regards to how MA were before the cultural revolution in China?
While it is fanciful to believe the stories of MA codes and acts of valour in the pre- 20th century China, historical records don't really show that.
Most MA that we h ave now were "carried along" in the arms of bodyguards and fighters, not "scholars" or people of high "moral code" and most certainly not ( typically) by "warrior monks" of high moral fiber.
Stories that are passed down don't always tell the history.

The more MA history I study that more I realize that the true MA of the past had more in common with Mike Tyson than Qwai Chan Cain.

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1160381]

You are probably right Joy and yes, internet forums do tend to give a distorted view of reality.
That said, why DO we have such issues CONSISTENTLY on the WC forum?

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
8 possible explanations.

1. Discussion without sufficient moderation often become noise.
2. There is difference between anarchy and free speech. The latter includes listening.
3. The term lineage has lost it's traditional CMA meaning. Now i can put myself in the WSL
(substitute others) lineage by attending a few classes and seminars and engage in lineage wars.
4. Non wc folks expecting entertainment, anonymous key boarders, the perceived power of being behind a key board and not being held responsible,
5. Old shotokan had some quality control- now withered. The money making ability of TKD is based on degrees of silence among teachers who are not always friends..They laugh on the way to the bank.
6. Wing chun has poor quality control. Anyone can just use words like wc or whatever and engage in wc discussions....xyz, red flag, black flag, some mainland latecomers, non seamless synthesizers--you name it, Alice in wonderland.Wing chun IMO needs to shrink- not expand.
7. hyperactive keyboarders with itchy fingers jumping in on where there is motion.
8.egos and mad hatters.

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

Have you read the works of Brian Kennedy and others in regards to how MA were before the cultural revolution in China?

Yes I'm sure I have read that one, but my studies went more into Buddhist and Taoist traditions to be fair.

Stories that are passed down don't always tell the history.

The more MA history I study that more I realize that the true MA of the past had more in common with Mike Tyson than Qwai Chan Cain.

I kinda of agree with you here, but I like the saying 'A Master is not born, he/she is made'. This does not apply to fighters imo because I believe you are born with that instinct, or not. Fight or flight and all that.

What about your hung Gar Code of Conduct?? Have you an example of that for us to compare?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Yes I'm sure I have read that one, but my studies went more into Buddhist and Taoist traditions to be fair.



I kinda of agree with you here, but I like the saying 'A Master is not born, he/she is made'. This does not apply to fighters imo because I believe you are born with that instinct, or not. Fight or flight and all that.

What about your hung Gar Code of Conduct?? Have you an example of that for us to compare?

All MA systems have a code of conduct, even the western ones ( typically based on the code of chivalry).
Many of the codes are "school specific" of course but they all share common elements.
The Jing Wu is an example.

The core has always been to be righteous to each other ( brothers in the system) to not pray on but protect the weak.
To be honest and not quarrelsome
DO not lie or cheat or mislead because these are signs of weakness.
To not being shame and dishonur to our MA by behaviour or by fighting with it without permission or to use it to hurt others.
Etc, etc.

[WingChunABQ]

Have you read the works of Brian Kennedy and others in regards to how MA were before the cultural revolution in China?

This sounds interesting. Which works are these?

[sanjuro_ronin]

This sounds interesting. Which works are these?

Brian has two:
http://www.amazon.com/Brian-Kennedy/...0454622&sr=8-9

This one is also very good in regards to Shaolin:
The Shaolin Monastery: History, Religion, and the Chinese Martial Arts by Meir Shahar (Jan 2008)

[WingChunABQ]

Awesome! Thanks!