Ip Man and his Code of Conduct

[couch]

Well...I'm terribly happy that I'm so far removed from Ip Man it's not funny - AND I live in North America. I'm off the hook then. Back to my heavy bag and sprints...

[anerlich]

If you need a list of rules from a dead guy (be it 39 or 2012 years ago) to tell you how to behave, IMO you should be prohibited from reproducing.

I have always believed that the Wing Chun student who couldn't care less for cultural learning (Man Fa) will only ever grasp the basic external structure of Martial Arts. The commercial engine as it is today. Those who are searching for more fulfillment from their years dedication tend to, at some point, look deeper into the language for starters and this is a very good starting point. Wouldn't you agree?

No.

[sanjuro_ronin]

If you need a list of rules from a dead guy (be it 39 or 2012 years ago) to tell you how to behave, IMO you should be prohibited from reproducing.



No.

I think you are being to harsh.
I don't think anyone is suggesting you NEED a list of rules from a dead guy, especially since we already have that list in one for or another ( though some could argue that knowing the history of that list is important).
And I disagree that we can't get anything from the history of our chose art.
EX:
Some claiming to be tradionalist will say this and that about a system and how it should be.
Yet to examine that history of said system shows that was NOT how it was nor how it should be.
And example of that is a group claiming to be tradtionalists and saying that one should NOT test the system against other systems while the very history of that system shows that was how it was developed and continued to evolve.

[GlennR]

I just thought that this may be a good time to post this here considering the amount of constant rule breaking that seems to be happening in our wide Wing Chun circle these days...

I would also like to hear from anyone who has more or different sets of Mo Duk, because I have and I understand that this early piece was specifically used by Ip Man to promote his public school in Hong Kong, and it was shared with the majority of his students who we have traces of today. A more Traditional version exists FME.

I have no interest in hearing from anyone who couldn't give a sh!t about this sorth of thing, so I'm not expecting too many responses!

Here's an example from Sifu Samuel Kwoks site



And here is the same example from Sifu Augustine Fong

This is the part of the MA's that i just dont get.

Id suggest all of the above things are basic attributes of any "good" person, regardless of wether they do MA's or not.

Im currently reading Richard Dawkin's "the God Delusion" and he devotes a large section of his book to the (supposed) relationship with religion and correct moral behaviour. He basically espouses that you dont have to be part of any religion to be morally sound.... id agree with him.

Id use his argument to dispute the worth of the above "codes".

[anerlich]

And I disagree that we can't get anything from the history of our chose art.

I'm not suggesting that.

I am highly sceptical of the notion that immersing oneself uncritically in "culture" and "language" will necessarily make you a better martial artist, fighter, or human being.

My points of reference are BJJ (which shows an art can be removed from its cultural and linguistic context and thrive, and perhaps even progress faster thanks to the liberation from cultural shackles), and Matt Thornton's writings on TMA's (the downside of secrets, special terminology, etc.).

Some may mention the stereotypical MMA meathead, but IMO unprejudiced observations will show that TMAs have at least as many psychos and sociopaths, and certainly more new age weirdness. The (often inaccurate and self-serving) "history" and "cultural heritage" of TMA's arguably abet rather than prevent such tendencies.

[sanjuro_ronin]

This is the part of the MA's that i just dont get.

Id suggest all of the above things are basic attributes of any "good" person, regardless of wether they do MA's or not.

Im currently reading Richard Dawkin's "the God Delusion" and he devotes a large section of his book to the (supposed) relationship with religion and correct moral behaviour. He basically espouses that you dont have to be part of any religion to be morally sound.... id agree with him.

Id use his argument to dispute the worth of the above "codes".

When the codes have become part of the "norm" then no, one doesn't need to be a part of where they MAY h ave come from, Dawkins is quite correct in that regard.
Of course the grand "sez who?" may have something to say about that.
That Ip Man, like others, saw a NEED to formalize these things that should be "second nature" shows that they are not as second nature as they shoudl be or that we think they are.

[sanjuro_ronin]

I'm not suggesting that.

I am highly sceptical of the notion that immersing oneself uncritically in "culture" and "language" will necessarily make you a better martial artist, fighter, or human being.

My points of reference are BJJ (which shows an art can be removed from its cultural and linguistic context and thrive, and perhaps even progress more thanks to the liberation from cultural shackles), and Matt Thornton's writings on TMA's (the downside of secrets, special terminology, etc.).

Some may mention the stereotypical MMA meathead, but IMO unprejudiced observations will show that TMAs have at least as many psychos and sociopaths. The history and "cultural heritage" of TMA's arguably abet rather than prevent such tendencies.

I agree and to a certain point we must realize that culture and language of a TMA may even the the source of the problems in that MA.

[GlennR]

That Ip Man, like others, saw a NEED to formalize these things that should be "second nature" shows that they are not as second nature as they shoudl be or that we think they are.

But did he say that? Spencer has thrown up a couple of codes from two other people, im yet to be convinced IM had a written code.

And even if they arent second nature, what gives a martial arts instructor the right to impose his values on someone else?

[sanjuro_ronin]

But did he say that? Spencer has thrown up a couple of codes from two other people, im yet to be convinced IM had a written code.

And even if they arent second nature, what gives a martial arts instructor the right to impose his values on someone else?

A MA instructor has every right to impose his values on any person that is willing to be trained by him, that is his right.
Just as it is the students to tell him where to go and leave.

[GlennR]

A MA instructor has every right to impose his values on any person that is willing to be trained by him, that is his right.
Just as it is the students to tell him where to go and leave.

Fair enough to a degree, if the guy is a knob tell him to leave, if the instructors a knob dont train with him.

Thats the reality in any relationship, be it work, family or friends.

I have my own business with 12 people working for me, should i put up a set of values similar to the codes Spencer put up?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Fair enough to a degree, if the guy is a knob tell him to leave, if the instructors a knob dont train with him.

Thats the reality in any relationship, be it work, family or friends.

I have my own business with 12 people working for me, should i put up a set of values similar to the codes Spencer put up?

Why not? you certainly CAN do that.
Whether it will work for you is another matter.
lets not forget that lawyers are suppose to follow a code of ethics.
Enough said.

[GlennR]

Why not? you certainly CAN do that.
Whether it will work for you is another matter.
lets not forget that lawyers are suppose to follow a code of ethics.
Enough said.

Yes i COULD try that, i could also turn up naked to work and both would go down the same with my staff.

The code of ethics in regards to Lawyers (and doctors) would be there to ensure legal ramifications to clientele (and i guess the practitioner) in the case of something going wrong. I dont see the connection to what we are talking about.

Anyway, seems we agree to disagree

[anerlich]

I agree and to a certain point we must realize that culture and language of a TMA may even the the source of the problems in that MA.

I concur.

I don't necessarily have a problem with a set of rules in an MA school. My own BJJ instructor has what I regard as quite a good one for his schools. A school IMO lives or dies on its mat culture.

It's passing down dogma uncritically from a historical figure, and assuming that said dogma's association or antiquity necessarily provides it with greater gravitas, that I have problems with.

Yip Man was an Wing Chun expert. His reputation as moral philosopher or ethicist is unremarkable.

[Vajramusti]

I concur.

I don't necessarily have a problem with a set of rules in an MA school. My own BJJ instructor has what I regard as quite a good one for his schools. A school IMO lives or dies on its mat culture.

It's passing down dogma uncritically from a historical figure, and assuming that said dogma's association or antiquity necessarily provides it with greater gravitas, that I have problems with.

Yip Man was an Wing Chun expert. His reputation as moral philosopher or ethicist is unremarkable.

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Ip Man's statement hangs in my school: Two caligraphies of Ip Man's advice- one by my sifu and another one done by a Chinese student of mine. None of my teachers- mentors in philosophy, gurus in yoga, guides in the academic world, high school. college and competitive boxing coaches , martial arts teachers and sihings, political heroes including Jefferson were perfect. Ip Man was not a perfect human being.But in my evolution I didn't look for perfect human beings.Before reading Nietzsche.
I knew that the perfect was the enemy of the good. I was interested in knowledge and was grateful when directly or indirectly good knowledge was shared.I debated most of my teachers but was grateful for the knowledge that was shared.
Honoring one's teachers and gratitude are pretty good virtues...in my books.

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Honoring one's teachers and gratitude are pretty good virtues...in my books.

Agree.

Not sure that blind allegiance to a set of rules allegedly set by my teacher's teacher's teacher is required to do that.

For those claiming adherence to Buddhist or Taoist traditions, IMO neither is about allegiance to dogma but rather the opposite.