Ip Man and his Code of Conduct

[sanjuro_ronin]

Am I right in saying that Joy is the only person here who has this Code of Conduct presented in his hall? Who else?

Anyone use a picture of Ip Man, or your Sifu and ancestry?

Just intrigued because I don't see much evidence here of direct connection to the Wing Chun family, and I know there are some here!

Every commercial school I have trained in: TKD, Kyokushin, judo, WC, Hung Kuen had a code of conduct AND pictures of the founders/reknown practioners.
Nothing at all wrong with that, far from it.

[Vajramusti]

Every commercial school I have trained in: TKD, Kyokushin, judo, WC, Hung Kuen had a code of conduct AND pictures of the founders/reknown practioners.
Nothing at all wrong with that, far from it.

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Fer sure. My school is not quite commercial.

joy

[LoneTiger108]

Nothing at all wrong with that, far from it.

Agreed 100% and this falls into code of conduct no.9

But you have a very traditional background in Martial Arts (from what I see) and there are obviously some Wing Chun people who shy away from this cultural practise because it just doesn't interest them, or they have never been exposed to this way of life by their Sifu. Maybe even their Sifu hated the idea!!

I find nothing wrong in that either, but I'm a traditional kind of guy in the end I suppose. May even go as far as burning a bit of incense too! Am I bad??!

[sanjuro_ronin]

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Fer sure. My school is not quite commercial.

joy

I said commercial to distinguish from private, no offense intended Joy.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agreed 100% and this falls into code of conduct no.9

But you have a very traditional background in Martial Arts (from what I see) and there are obviously some Wing Chun people who shy away from this cultural practise because it just doesn't interest them, or they have never been exposed to this way of life by their Sifu. Maybe even their Sifu hated the idea!!

I find nothing wrong in that either, but I'm a traditional kind of guy in the end I suppose. May even go as far as burning a bit of incense too! Am I bad??!

The cultural trappings of ANY MA are not always for everyone, some people may have cultural or even religious reasons for avoiding them and as long as their teacher is ok with that, we should have no comment on it.
That said, I know many a teacher who's MA is entrenched in their culture and you can't get one without the other.

My exposure to the Yagyu Shinkage ryu system was a prime example of that.

[Vajramusti]

I said commercial to distinguish from private, no offense intended Joy.

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I understood Sanjuro.No offense taken whatsoever.

joy

[Wayfaring]

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Pointless sarcasm. Ip Man had his flaws.
Members of a relatively well to do class of Chinese people were drawn into opium houses and culture ---negative effects of western imperialism- the opium wars and the required selling of opium...the Brits shipped it from my hometown Calcutta to Canton regularly. Not just IM but YKS and others.
US Tobacco companies even now do quite a job selling tobacco in Asia--sans the attempt at restrictions in the US.

I don't engage in pointless sarcasm about lineage ancestors in non IM lineages or other IM lineages..

Thus, I also enjoy Coleridge's poetry without dwelling on his personal habits.

joy chaudhuri

I don't believe it is pointless sarcasm. It actually is not sarcasm at all, merely an observation. I am pointing out a dichotomy in behavior versus what he wrote and published as a "code of conduct".

Sure the Brits shipped opium. But it was a personal moral choice to have that habit or not. It wasn't the Brits fault Ip Man chose to succomb to that habit. It was a vice.

Now there are many martial arts teachers that just teach the art and don't publish "codes of conduct". However, if one does, just like the martial arts teachers teachings of the martial art it would be completely illogical not to examine whether or not the "code of conduct" was one the teacher successfully lived through his life and thus was passing on or not. In this case it appears not.

What's pointless is your comparison of how you don't engage in pointless sarcasm about other lineage ancestors. And how you compare Coleridge's poetry.

I too enjoy fictional works done by author's with challenging vices. I enjoy Sherlock Holmes works, but have read that A. Conan Doyle also had an opium habit. However, the author wasn't writing a "code of conduct" to be passed down to all his martial arts schools either.

Part of a cult-like behavior IMO is seeing white knights charge to the rescue of the image of a man that was just a man with vices. I can enjoy Ip Man's "code of conduct" as something he tried to use throughout his life to keep him focused on his virtues and away from his vices as striving for virtue and falling short is common to all mankind.

However, I have to be realistic about it. I'm more interested in his discourse on elbow position as I know that to have been empirically tested.

[WingChunABQ]

Am I right in saying that Joy is the only person here who has this Code of Conduct presented in his hall? Who else?

Anyone use a picture of Ip Man, or your Sifu and ancestry?

Just intrigued because I don't see much evidence here of direct connection to the Wing Chun family, and I know there are some here!

In my Sifu's kwoon hang these sayings, the kuit in Chinese and English, photos of Yip Man, Ho Kam Ming, Augusting Fong, Joy and others.

[Vajramusti]

In my Sifu's kwoon hang these sayings, the kuit in Chinese and English, photos of Yip Man, Ho Kam Ming, Augusting Fong, Joy and others.

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Wing chun ABQ
Say hello to your sifu for me when you see him.
I don't do facebook, twitter, link etc but email is fine.
Regrads,

joy chaudhuri

[LoneTiger108]

That said, I know many a teacher who's MA is entrenched in their culture and you can't get one without the other.

Here was my challenge!! Although, if truth be told, I wanted to learn as much as possible and I have always been into the culture through cantonese childhood friends, so I personally didn't see the problem because I thought that's how it should be!

Part of a cult-like behavior IMO is seeing white knights charge to the rescue of the image of a man that was just a man with vices. I can enjoy Ip Man's "code of conduct" as something he tried to use throughout his life to keep him focused on his virtues and away from his vices as striving for virtue and falling short is common to all mankind.

That sounds reasonable, as long as your reference to White Knights wasn't aimed at me! lol!

I can add this: If you wanted to set-up a Martial Art school (as Ip Man did in HK) you would have to submit your codes and curriculums to the local council. This was, of course, not the only reason for such things to exist, but it had a major influence of the writings 'of the time'.

The same applies to me in the UK, if I wanted to gain support from my local government. My Sifu too has done this for years in his local area, and this is obviously one of the major factors behind us performing in front of Royalty. Cultural exchange is very big here in the UK

[trubblman]

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Pointless sarcasm. Ip Man had his flaws.

I didnt read it as sarcasm. I read it as saying that there is a difference between Ip Man the person and Ip Man the icon.

[LoneTiger108]

I didnt read it as sarcasm. I read it as saying that there is a difference between Ip Man the person and Ip Man the icon.

I think, with regards to Ip Man the person, there are so many new generations entering the system now that we have thousands upon thousands of people who have learnt about Wing Chun and Ip Man from the movies. The projection of him as an Icon.

As far as I am aware there is only one book in print that attempts to share more examples of Ip Mans personality and life, written by Ip Ching. And that too promotes the iconic side to the man but there are still glimmers in there.

I am happy that his Code of Conduct survived at least because it does show what he was aiming for too. It was his way of sharing the older traditions, which he knew and understood, with his more modern students at a time of massive change in Martial Arts.

[sanjuro_ronin]

It wasn't just Ip Man, look at Oyama and so many others.
They all have codes of conduct in their systems and all fell far short of them.
Such is human nature.
Codes of conduct are goals to strive for and while we can always say that a teacher was "Do what as I say, not as I do", the fact is that ALL teachers are/were like that.
Truth is truth, regardless of the source and if one holds certain things to be right and correct then they are just that.

[anerlich]

Y'know what I find interesting about this post?

Well, yeah, you went on to tell me.

You presume that I followed my Sifu blindly or something? That we didn't debate, share ideals and even argue bitterly about values, ethics and such like!!??

You're the only one presuming anything here. I never said any of that sh!t. Regular readers would be unsurprised to hear that you get into lots of arguments, I guess.

If you would only try to reassess what you have pre-judged about my personal history with my teacher, you may find that I'm not as blind as you imagine.

After several years we are far beyond "pre-judgement". I don't GAF about your personal history with your teacher, nor about the intricacies of your personality.

I don't care much either way.

Good. STFU then.

I just happen to be the only student of his, like ever, to reveal such things. That's all. And I do so with his full support now, unlike before when we first promoted his methods back in 1994. It was only after 1997 that he decidied to go public really.

A sequence of events in which I have no interest.

Besides, there are no 'alleged' things here. I am giving you 'facts'. I speak as truthfully as I'm able here (most of the time!! lol!) and yet I still feel that you hold that against me for some reason?

I don't agree with you on a number of subjects, including your own and your teachers' apparently perceived importance in the scheme of things. Occasionally you get ridiculously pompous, and attract the derision you deserve for that. What you claim as fact is more often than not just your or your seniors' opinion.

If these are genuine YM rules of conduct, it is not fact but opinion that they form a tradition which must be preserved. Other opinions might have it that they are just a set of bleedingly obvious platitudes that most people would come up with on their own with some introspection, and that such sets of rules impede rather than promote personal growth.

[anerlich]

My teacher's school has a shrine with pictures of YM and John Church, a former instructor and student and member of the Australian SAS who was killed in the line of duty. Also Barbara Rich, a former student who died of cancer a couple of years back.

Also formal photographs of past and current instructors and senior instructors. And many more of students, sparring sessions, kickboxing, BJJ and MMA competition matches, etc. etc.

There is a code of conduct on the wall which came from William Cheung (though as the self-appointed gatekeeper of YM tradition, Spencer, would protest, NOT FROM YIP MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!) .

I wrote an extensive analysis of it in a thesis for my instructor level grading, which monomaniacs and the REALLY bored could probably find on the web in the unlikely event they were interested.