Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut forms

[crazyfistmonk]

From my research, these are the major forms taught across the various Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut lineages. Keeping in mind that this list does not include the Buk Sil Lum or Chow Gar forms that are occasionally taught within individual Buk Sing schools, and that this list is by no means all inclusive. It should also be noted that Most Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut schools teach only 2-3 forms from this list, preferring instead to focus on fighting applications, physical conditioning, and free sparring over the learning of forms. Keep in mind that individual schools may share a given form in name only, having an entirely different interpretation of that form which may vary from school to school.

Buk Sing forms:
(in no particular order)

Chi Lun Mah
Sub Jee Kuen
Kau Da Kuen
Dai Sub Jee Kuen
Siu Sub Jee Kuen
Sub Jee Kau Da Kuen
Ping Kuen
Siu Ping Kuen
Lin Waan Kau Da Kuen
Cheung Kuen

Weapons:
Seung Gup Dahn Gwun
Cheung Kiu Dang

I would like to hear from other Choy Lay Fut practitioners as to what forms your particular school teaches and to also get a general discussion going concerning the Buk Sing forms listed (and perhaps not listed) above. I look forward to your comments.

[hskwarrior]

Cheung Kuen

buk sing Cheung Kuen is a northern form and not a CLF form.

[crazyfistmonk]

I would have to respectfully disagree. According to information provided at buksing.com:

"Master Tarm Sarm’s students would first be taught the ‘Sub Tse Kuen’ (Ten Pattern Form), which usually took three months to complete. Next, they would learn the ‘Kou Da’ form, which would require another six months to learn. After the students had mastered the first two forms, they began to learn the third set, called ‘Ping Kuen’ (Level Form), which could take a year or more to master. Even today, anyone with knowledge of the various kung fu styles recognizes the ‘Ping Kuen’ salute and form as being from Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut!

Upon mastering the ‘Ping Kuen’, the students would begin to learn and master the ‘Cheung Kuen’ (Long Form), a feat that could take two or more years. During the continuous form training, the students also had to learn the ‘Sub Tse Jong’ (Ten Pattern Wooden Dummy) in which they practice all their basic moves and techniques. There was no set routine or pattern for the ‘Ching Jong’ wooden dummy; the students would go through all they had learned and improve on their reflexes and timing."

This would indicate that Cheung Kuen is in fact an original Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut set. Perhaps you are confusing this with the Buk Sil Lum sets taught within some Buk Sing schools, but these forms are usually those taught by Ku Yu Cheung and include: Tun Da #6, Moi Fah #7, and Bot Bo #8, among others.
Now, is this the same set as Hung Sing's Cheung Kuen? I have no idea, honestly. But I would have to stand by my original statement that Cheung Kuen is a Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut form as taught by GM Tarm Sarm.

[hskwarrior]

Frank...
I would have to respectfully disagree. According to information provided at buksing.com:

bro, i respectfully would like to inform you i was told by GM Vince Lacey (shanes father) face to face that Cheung Kuen in the buk sing branch isn't a choy lee fut form. sorry bro.

I was curious to see it since Cheung Kuen is the first form taught in the Lau Bun lineage. When i paid a visit to GM Laceys school he informed me that their Cheung Kuen wasn't CLF. Could it be exclusive to their direct lineage....sure. But i think i'll trust what GM Lacey told me face to face.

i've been at the history of our lineages for many many years now so i might know a few things. it may not be northern but it could have Jow Ga Kuen influence perhaps. once i learned it wasn't a CLF form they taught i dropped the whole issue.

[hskwarrior]

But i did find a form called Buk Sing Cheung Kuen.......

http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTk1MzAwMTY4.html

[crazyfistmonk]

The Lacey's website isn't the only source of information I have on the Buk Sing Cheung Kuen, although it supports my belief that Cheung Kuen is a Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut set considering that Tarm Sarm taught this form to his students. Other references (such as the link you posted) further lead me to believe that Cheung Kuen is a legitimate Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut form. Thus, I listed it along with the other sets which may, or may not, be widely taught within Buk Sing, but are still considered to be authentic Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut forms.
This list is based on my personal research, and is by no means all inclusive or strictly infallible. On the contrary, I am posting this information to foster debate and further research. If it effectively serves that purpose, then I am certainly satisfied.

[hskwarrior]

Cheung Kuen is a Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut set

let me know when u cracked this case....lol

The Cheung Kuen set as taught by the lacey fam is exclusive to their lineage.

[crazyfistmonk]

I did come across something interesting. It's off an old thread here (11-01-08) from a post by Gary Shambrook. When asked about the Tit Jin Kuen (Cheung Kuen, sometimes Tit Jin Cheung Kuen) he teaches, this was Gary's reply:

"There is no iron arrow in buck sing so yes it did come from hung sing, si fu put the techniques in that he liked and i did the ones that i liked, gwar charp sows been choys etc. There is more then enough techniques in the three forms of the buck sing gwoon but when you have been doing it for so long its good to develop things to suit youself it keeps the intrest up and thats the way most schools developed anyway."

This is interesting because it would seem to indicate that not only does Dave Lacey have his own version of Cheung Kuen, but that this version comes from Hung Sing! It makes me wonder if the Lacey's learned this form from the Fut Shan Hung Sing line, or the Poon Sing/Lee Koon Hung (commonly referred to as Hung Sing) line? (I have been told that the two versions are completely different in both content and structure.)

[hskwarrior]

iron arrow

Isn't from hung sing either.

CLFNOLE will even back this up bro. the Lee Koon Hung lineage is more more more chan family than Hung Sing. There's some stories behind this all but no need to post them here. Their lineage contains chan family material. they only share our name cause it was allowed to happen. but like i said ....another place another time.

[crazyfistmonk]

Considering this, I would assume (perhaps erroneously) that when Gary refers to Hung Sing in his post, he means Lee Koon Hung's line, not necessarily understanding that it isn't really Hung Sing, although it is commonly referred to this way. If this is true, it could answer the question posed in my previous post concerning the source of the Lacey's Cheung Kuen/Tit Jin Kuen.
Largely speculation, of course, but interesting nonetheless.

Thanks for the info.

[CLFNole]

Tuet Jin Kuen - loosely translates into Breaking Holds Form in our lineage not Iron Arrow. I believe sifu might have shown Sifu Lacey this set as sifu mentioned it once. I know they were friends as Sifu Lacey told me he remembered seeing my wife when she was a toddler. I have seen Sifu Lacey do some technqiues from it when he performs but I have never seen another buk sing student perform the actual set. So what you heard sounds right in that he took the techniques he liked and used them.

[crazyfistmonk]

CLF,
Enlightening post. Thank you likewise for the info.

[CLFNole]

CFM:

The form has to do with fighting your way out of an ambush or more or less a multiple attacker scenario. It moves in various directions and has number of continuous combo type attacks.

I have never seen Chen Yong Fa/Chan Wing Fat's version of Tuet Jin Cheung Kuen so I have no reference of comparison other that I have never seen the form outside of our line.

[Drake]

CLF has a good number of highly approachable (and eccentric) GMs you can speak to directly on the matter. I'm pretty sure I could call any number of these folks and have a conversation with them (granted they weren't busy knocking down trees with their sow choys).

It's always better, instead of relying on websites, to just take the time and tree fiddy it costs you to make the call, and hear it straight from the horses' mouth.

[iron_silk]

That is the rough translations of the following (since I can't really read Chinese) 醉拳八卦（北胜蔡李佛高级拳种卢思练演示）


http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XNzI3ODI3NTY4.html

Has anyone ever heard of this form before?

I have heard from a Buk Sing Master that for most part they only have the 3 forms: Sup Jee Kuen, Ping Kuen, and Kou Da Kuen.

They said they use to have "Cheung Kuen" but was lost with time since it was too long and not enough people practiced it to remember.