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Thread: Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut forms

  1. #31
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    all good bruh. (anything is better than d1khead) lmao
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by hskwarrior View Post
    To be honest with you.....

    They are nothing but mere tools. in others a kung fu dance. it's just a hand form. it won't make you levitate nor glow in the dark. still, the CLF between Chan Heung and Cheung Hung Sing was "SEPARATELY" developed. This is common knowledge.

    Iron Silk, you are definitely entitled to be curious to everything that peeks your curiosity. However, I have NEVER been proven to be wrong in any my statements since i've been on this forum going back to 2001. Today in 2015, i still say the same things in regards to Chan Heung's gung fu and that of Cheung Hung Sing's.



    If you know the history of CLF (especially Buk Sing), Tam Sam only learned 3 hand forms from Hung Sing Master Lui Chun. When he left Fut San and moved to Siu Buk, I don't have a clue to what he picked up after he left. Could a classmate of his share any more hung sing forms with him without the knowledge of Master Lui Chun? I would say that has some VERY strong possibilities. In fact, even I have been passed down forms from "HUNG SING" that are not of Yuen Hai's direct lineage. My Sifu (being the keeper of the Yuen Hai lineage) doesn't have that form. I do however and it is being taught in my club. If Sifu makes me his successor, that form will then be a part of USA Hung Sing. Until then, it remains a Hung Sing Hung Loong Mo Kwoon hand form.

    Should Buk Sing have Che Kuen? I would say no. Why? Because we don't exactly know "WHEN" the Fut San Hung Sing Che Kuen was created. i will say this tho, Fut San Che Kuen is much like Yuen Hai lineages Cheung Kuen. In fact, i personally believe that the Yuen Hai lineage Cheung Kuen was the original Cheung Kuen since Yuen Hai was Chan Ngau Sing's senior classmate (by 20 years or more). When Lau Bun came to the United States in the early 20's he was teaching Cheung Kuen. Till this day this very form is still passed down via my lineage while the alleged original Cheung Kuen outside of the USA was lost or forgotten. But it has been preserved in my lineage IMO.

    Allow me to add this in tho.....if buk sing CLF developed MORE CLF forms exclusive to their lineage, it's still buk sing CLF. based off of Hung Sing CLF. There could possibly be tons of exclusive buk sing forms even between buk sing lineages. we just need to know what the core was and move forward from there to find the answers.

    Furthermore, I would like to paint the picture this way. Cheung Hung Sing was a student of Chan Heung from 1836-1841 (five years). There is Zero documentation by Chan Heung of what he actually taught between the years of 1836-1841. Our history states Cheung Hung Sing was 12 years old when he started and was 17 years old when he was asked to leave King Mui (that's five years). We know Cheung Hung Sing was 69 years old when he passed away in 1893. Subtract 1893-69 = 1824. Born in 1824 + 12 years = 1836 (same year CLF was alleged to have been established). Add 1836+5 = 1841. So, what was Chan Heung teaching exactly between 1836-1841? Was it five forms? 10? no one really knows. Being that Lau Bun was an old school teacher and grand student of Cheung Hung Sing and how Lau Bun actually taught, we know that in a five year period you may get anywhere from 2-5/6 hand forms in 5 years depending on how fast the teacher taught his students. therefore, in saying this, not even Lau Bun had Che Kuen in his arsenol which was around the same time Tam Sam was learning and teaching. So, Che Kuen could be a new addition because we picked up the form in 2001 during our trip and dealings with our mother school in Fut San.
    Interesting stuff...thanks for the reply!

    When I was 5 years old I learned "Che Kuen" aka Ng Lun Ma from Wong Ha lineage (which is essentially similar to Chan Heung lineage).

    I see a lot of similarities behind the one I learned and the one you presented from Fut San. Both essentially getting the students accustomed to the basic footwork and hand movements with repetition on either side. Obviously there are certain differences with the way we move but end result of stance and order is pretty much the same.

    I actually quite like the difference in your Che Kuen.

  3. #33
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    Non futsan branches use the term Che Kuen for Ng Lun Choy at least I know we do (LKH line). We also use Lai Ma for Ng Lun Ma. I recall Che Kuen refers to "practice the fist" whereas Lai Mai refers to "stretching the stance". Think it is more slang usage.

  4. #34
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    Non futsan branches use the term Che Kuen for Ng Lun Choy at least I know we do (LKH line). We also use Lai Ma for Ng Lun Ma. I recall Che Kuen refers to "practice the fist" whereas Lai Mai refers to "stretching the stance". Think it is more slang usage.
    for us it's a pulling and punching thing.
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  5. #35
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    Actually similar then because "lai" can translate to pull or stretch. Basically they loosely refer to stance and fist "warm ups".

  6. #36
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    Fut San Che Kuen
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  7. #37
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    and

    Lau Bun's Cheung Kuen are pretty much identical. Except our Cheung Kuen is a lot longer than Che Kuen
    Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
    when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
    Bruh we thought you knew better
    when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better

  8. #38
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    Not a Buk Sing guy, but I understand that Ku Yu Cheung and Tam Sam exchanged students and that is how the northern forms got into the Buk sing style. I think the so called 5 lower forms were exchanged to Tam Sam.

    dun da - short strike
    moi fah - plum flower
    bot bo - shuffle steps
    mo i - martial art
    chum sam - strike to the heart

    not sure if they are kept in buk sing today.
    just what I heard about the bak sil lum(KYC) and CLF(TS) masters exchange.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  9. #39
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    I have seen some buk sing schools do Tun Da but not the other 4 but perhaps some do and I have just never seen it.

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    Not a Buk Sing guy, but I understand that Ku Yu Cheung and Tam Sam exchanged students and that is how the northern forms got into the Buk sing style. I think the so called 5 lower forms were exchanged to Tam Sam.

    dun da - short strike
    moi fah - plum flower
    bot bo - shuffle steps
    mo i - martial art
    chum sam - strike to the heart

    not sure if they are kept in buk sing today.
    just what I heard about the bak sil lum(KYC) and CLF(TS) masters exchange.
    CLFNole - Grandmaster Wong Ha referred to Ng Lun Choy as Che Kuen as well.

    Frank - Long Fist looks great. Too bad BSCLF lost that form in their lineage.

    Northern Shaolin & Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut - I have seen Dun Da & Bot Bo performed before by BSCLF guys.

    However...I have heard from BSCLF master that she learned Dun Da & Hoy Moon (which I assume you would refer as "higher" forms)

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron_silk View Post
    CLFNole - Grandmaster Wong Ha referred to Ng Lun Choy as Che Kuen as well.

    Frank - Long Fist looks great. Too bad BSCLF lost that form in their lineage.

    Northern Shaolin & Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut - I have seen Dun Da & Bot Bo performed before by BSCLF guys.

    However...I have heard from BSCLF master that she learned Dun Da & Hoy Moon (which I assume you would refer as "higher" forms)
    The "lower" is only to describe the progressive method they are taught.
    The five I mentioned are the first 5 you will learn in Bak Sil Lum despite them being drawn from the middle of the system.
    What I mean by that is that dun da is the 6th form in the system, but it is usually the first of the core forms to be taught.
    The order is typically 6, 7, 8, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 9 and 10 the first 5 being called "lower" and the last five not being designated as higher. At least not as far as I know.

    Hoy Moon or Koy Moon (open the door) is set number 1 in the Bak Sil Lum Syllabus.
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    The "lower" is only to describe the progressive method they are taught.
    The five I mentioned are the first 5 you will learn in Bak Sil Lum despite them being drawn from the middle of the system.
    What I mean by that is that dun da is the 6th form in the system, but it is usually the first of the core forms to be taught.
    The order is typically 6, 7, 8, 4, 5, 1, 2, 3, 9 and 10 the first 5 being called "lower" and the last five not being designated as higher. At least not as far as I know.

    Hoy Moon or Koy Moon (open the door) is set number 1 in the Bak Sil Lum Syllabus.
    Thanks for the info! It sounds like you also train in Northern Shaolin?

    I thought you were a Black Tiger guy.

    Actually I have been learning primarily Bak Siu Lam for the last 10 years so I know what you mean about the system and the way it's taught.

    The point of my comment is that BSCLF players might not be limited to only the 5 "lower forms" (I only use for your term for it some we all know we're referencing the same forms).

    The first 5 forms students learn because they are the "shorter forms" and slightly less difficult in terms of techniques involved. Full disclosure I have only learned up to #1. I don't think anyone really knows why they number it that way but learn it in a different order other than perhaps...once you learned it all...you should practice it in that sequence.

    I have heard of students of Tam Sam who were sent over to Ku Yu Cheung and learned #6 & #1 (at least) which suggest Ku Yu Cheung can be selective to what he teaches.

    Also I heard of Master Lai Hung who although is famous for his BSCLF but he actually also learned from student of Ku Yu Cheung and potentially completed the Buk Siu Lam system as well...which would explain how more BSL forms got incorporated into BSCLF over the years.


    Sorry...I just kept typing and lost where I was going with this to begin with.

  13. #43
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    Yes I believe you are correct Lai Hung was also a BSL practioner in addition to BSCLF.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by iron_silk View Post
    Thanks for the info! It sounds like you also train in Northern Shaolin?

    I thought you were a Black Tiger guy.

    Actually I have been learning primarily Bak Siu Lam for the last 10 years so I know what you mean about the system and the way it's taught.

    The point of my comment is that BSCLF players might not be limited to only the 5 "lower forms" (I only use for your term for it some we all know we're referencing the same forms).

    The first 5 forms students learn because they are the "shorter forms" and slightly less difficult in terms of techniques involved. Full disclosure I have only learned up to #1. I don't think anyone really knows why they number it that way but learn it in a different order other than perhaps...once you learned it all...you should practice it in that sequence.

    I have heard of students of Tam Sam who were sent over to Ku Yu Cheung and learned #6 & #1 (at least) which suggest Ku Yu Cheung can be selective to what he teaches.

    Also I heard of Master Lai Hung who although is famous for his BSCLF but he actually also learned from student of Ku Yu Cheung and potentially completed the Buk Siu Lam system as well...which would explain how more BSL forms got incorporated into BSCLF over the years.


    Sorry...I just kept typing and lost where I was going with this to begin with.
    I just classify as a practitioner. But yes, I have learned from a couple of different styles and BSL is one of them. All Kung Fu is good as far as I'm concerned. Style is not really a major concern anymore. Enjoyment of practice is!
    Kung Fu is good for you.

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by David Jamieson View Post
    I just classify as a practitioner. But yes, I have learned from a couple of different styles and BSL is one of them. All Kung Fu is good as far as I'm concerned. Style is not really a major concern anymore. Enjoyment of practice is!
    I can't agree more with your statement.

    I hope to learn for as long as I can in my life.

    Style doesn't matter, to me it's all about who I am learning from.

    When I found my BSL Sifu I wasn't that crazy about Northern Shaolin (since my only exposure to kung fu was previously CLF and BSL seem to flowery) but the way my Sifu moved and the details he gave in teaching impressed me beyond words.

    I wasn't a big fan of BSCLF to honest with what limited exposure I had. Then I was amazed by a BSCLF Sifu in Vancouver. She had the fastest hands I had ever seen and her dedication to kung fu is peerless.

    So in short...it's all about who I'm learning from because I have seen same styles from other Sifu's that were less than impressive.

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