I can't help but wonder if the Cheung Kuen taught under the Yuen Hai/Lau Bun lineage is the original Cheung Kuen. We've been teaching it since the early 1920's even when Chan Ngau Sing was still alive.
周洪龍 金山鴻勝武舘 - 鴻勝佛家正宗
I can't help but wonder if the Cheung Kuen taught under the Yuen Hai/Lau Bun lineage is the original Cheung Kuen. We've been teaching it since the early 1920's even when Chan Ngau Sing was still alive.
Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
Bruh we thought you knew better
when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better
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Interesting. Although I'm not Buk Sing, I always thought the longest form in CLF is Sup Ji Kau Da Kuen. I know it's the longest set I have.Originally Posted by iron_silk
周洪龍 金山鴻勝武舘 - 鴻勝佛家正宗
yeah Sup Ji Kau Da is indeed one of the longest forms in CLF regardless of branch
Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
Bruh we thought you knew better
when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better
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Aahhh....the one true form they all branches share.
周洪龍 金山鴻勝武舘 - 鴻勝佛家正宗
Lee Koong Hung, Doc Fai Wong, Chan Yong Fa, Sam Ng and others who are of Chan heung's lineage share the same or very similar Sup Ji Kau Da Kuens. At least, they can identify with the techniques.
Fut San lineages Sup Ji Kau Da Kuen is not the same one taught in chan heung's lineage. sure, they may share the + pattern but the hands inside that cross pattern are not the same.
The only CLF forms buk sing have came from Cheung Hung Sing's lineage, none from chan heung. cheung Hung Sing's lineage does not share a single form with Chan Heung's lineage. our Ping Kuen, Kau Da, Cheung Kuen, Sup Ji Kau Da are shared only BY NAME. The meat and potato's of these forms are not the same. one SJKDK is meatloaf while the other SJKDK is Tri-tip. just like you can have two franks in the room. they share the name but are not the same person.
Last edited by hskwarrior; 06-09-2015 at 11:44 AM.
Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
Bruh we thought you knew better
when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better
Registered User
I see what you mean.
I noticed with Sup Ji Kau Da definitely the individual moves and intent seem very different despite sharing the same pattern and basic outline structure of form. Obviously it shared the same origin at one point or another BUT clearly evolved into different species.
Since I got you here and just to bring this thread back to the main point...Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut.
Does BSCLF have a Sup Ji Kau Da form?
When I asked a master in BSCLF she said they have a Sup Ji form and a Kau Da form but NOT a Sup Ji Kau Da form.
Any thoughts? Maybe their Kau Da form is Sup Ji Kau Da but just lost the "Sup Ji" in the name?
Thanks!
周洪龍 金山鴻勝武舘 - 鴻勝佛家正宗
Anyone from any style can have and share the same patter of the sup ji +. anyone from CLF to Bak Mei who has a sup ji form. the same goes for the character of Ping Kuen (平). so just because a system shares the name and pattern of 平 Ping & + Sup. the name a tool like a pot. what is in the pot is what counts.I noticed with Sup Ji Kau Da definitely the individual moves and intent seem very different despite sharing the same pattern and basic outline structure of form. Obviously it shared the same origin at one point or another BUT clearly evolved into different species.
IRON SILK, remember when you said this about me?
How does your foot taste bruh? hahaha4) The reason why Frank's history is not believed well is because his history is more ridiculous and force a much greater suspension of belief.
Last edited by hskwarrior; 06-10-2015 at 12:54 PM.
Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
Bruh we thought you knew better
when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better
Registered User
Wow you really doing history check on me "bruh"? I know you have written a lot and done a lot of homework for the past years but to be honest I have been so removed from following your CLF history debate that...it wouldn't be appropriate for me to say that I have my foot in mouth or not.
To be fair though...based what you said and how you said your stuff back then (you know when I made my comment) it was true! Given that lack of proper evidence (back then) and how the history is presented I made an opinion. I didn't which is true or not but rather which one made most since. Even within Chan Family and Hung Sing lineages the history differs from one to another.
Since then you may have found new and more evidence but that is "new" and does not "change history" since you really didn't have that information then and "frankly" I don't have the interest or time to read it now. Given that I haven't done the appropriate homework on your hard work it would be inappropriate for me to give ANY OPINION what so ever.
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On the topic of Sup Ji Kau Da...I have to heavily disagree with you based on the videos I have seen of the forms online from the vast amount of different lineages.
Although "yes" many different styles have same "cross pattern" BUT with "Sup Ji Kau Da" after the inital opening the movements (although different in detail) follows the same structure...such as moving into horse stance, repetition of same moves on each side, moving forward with the types of punches, kicks, stances ...and serious of upper cuts etc...are very close in order of movements.
You can try to generalize it by saying plenty of styles and forms have cross pattern and all CLF have same "seeds" and "what not" BUT that only makes the similarities that much more obvious since there are plenty of other CLF forms and etc that may have cross pattern but not the exact combo of movements that are that close.
You can disagree with me. It is your right to do so but...why not let others decide?
Lau Bun Linegae: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8nP9G5-YHo (She is simly fantastic!) and similarities after signature intro.
Doc Fai Wong Lineage (Lau Bun version?): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3ZvSU_THQc
Mak Hin Fai Student (Lee Koon Hung lineage): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz8UV5RrRUA
Hilbert Yiu's students (Wong Ha Lineage): Start at 2:30min mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRDmzPQt4p0
Sam Ng's student: Similarities after the 30 seconds mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwx1It0rc5w but they call it "Da Kau Da Kuen"
ANYWAY....you get the picture and if anyone got time please enjoy. Everyone can watch and list all the moves and at some point or another (in my opinion) it gets scarily similar. I am not saying they are "exact" but rather enough evidence to suggest it started off from the same source but then greatly deviated as all the different lineages (even within families) has regardless of history debate or not.
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To redirect back to the point of this thread though...Frank...i am disappointed.
Despite your thorough research and writing...you have avoided commenting on two questions I listed on this thread.
1) I was curious your take on BSCLF Drunken Fist - since i value your experience and knowledge
2) How come Buk Sing doesn't have a Sup Ji Kau Da?
Thanks bruh!
Last edited by iron_silk; 06-10-2015 at 02:44 PM.
周洪龍 金山鴻勝武舘 - 鴻勝佛家正宗
The three forms of buk sing CLF come from Cheung Hung Sing. what they did to it after is not my business. The three forms they have are "Ping Kuen, Kau Da and Sup Ji". As far as i know they don't have Cheung Yim's drunken form. I will ask them about their drunken form and get an answer on that.1) I was curious your take on BSCLF Drunken Fist - since i value your experience and knowledge
again, they only had Ping Kuen, Kau Da, and Sup Ji Kuen. i believe their siu forms are of they own arrangement. if some out there actually do have a Sup Ji Kau Da, you would have to ask if it were exclusive to their direct lineage. For example, Doc Fai Wong is of the Lau Bun lineage but he does not have Jo Yau Biu Ser which is exclusive to my direct lineage.How come Buk Sing doesn't have a Sup Ji Kau Da?
In regards to the links to sup ji kau da.... especially of the Lau Bun lineage, it is exclusive to my lineage. sure the name is the same, but lau bun created this form for our lineage because our Ping Kuen, Kau Da, and Sup Ji share many of the same techniques so he combined all three to form our Sup Ji Kau Da. Therefore it doesn't share the elements outside of the fut san lineage.
Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
Bruh we thought you knew better
when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better
周洪龍 金山鴻勝武舘 - 鴻勝佛家正宗
ok straight from the mouth of Master Tsang Hin Kuen: "No, no such form in CLF before as I know" then he confirmed with me that IF a buk sing lineage claims to have one then it came from somewhere else or it was made up.
Lau Bun's is the creator of our Sup Ji Kau Da. so i would expect doc fai wong's Hung Sing Sup Ji Kau Da to look exactly the same. in regards to the other demonstrations, i cannot relate to them as the arrangement of their techniques inside the form are not the same that we teach.On the topic of Sup Ji Kau Da...I have to heavily disagree with you based on the videos I have seen of the forms online from the vast amount of different lineages.
Although "yes" many different styles have same "cross pattern" BUT with "Sup Ji Kau Da" after the inital opening the movements (although different in detail) follows the same structure...such as moving into horse stance, repetition of same moves on each side, moving forward with the types of punches, kicks, stances ...and serious of upper cuts etc...are very close in order of movements.
You can try to generalize it by saying plenty of styles and forms have cross pattern and all CLF have same "seeds" and "what not" BUT that only makes the similarities that much more obvious since there are plenty of other CLF forms and etc that may have cross pattern but not the exact combo of movements that are that close.
You can disagree with me. It is your right to do so but...why not let others decide?
Lau Bun Linegae: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8nP9G5-YHo (She is simly fantastic!) and similarities after signature intro.
Doc Fai Wong Lineage (Lau Bun version?): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3ZvSU_THQc
Mak Hin Fai Student (Lee Koon Hung lineage): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tz8UV5RrRUA
Hilbert Yiu's students (Wong Ha Lineage): Start at 2:30min mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MRDmzPQt4p0
Sam Ng's student: Similarities after the 30 seconds mark https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rwx1It0rc5w but they call it "Da Kau Da Kuen"
Last edited by hskwarrior; 06-10-2015 at 03:48 PM.
Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
Bruh we thought you knew better
when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better
Registered User
So you are saying Fut San CLF doesn't have Sup Ji Kau Da either?
周洪龍 金山鴻勝武舘 - 鴻勝佛家正宗
yes. many lineages of Fut San Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut have their own sup ji kau da kuen's.So you are saying Fut San CLF doesn't have Sup Ji Kau Da either?
ARE THEY ALL EXACTLY THE SAME? NO.
*** do they come from Chan Heung? ABSOLUTELY NOT.
Last edited by hskwarrior; 06-12-2015 at 08:21 AM.
Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
Bruh we thought you knew better
when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better
Registered User
To be honest with you...at this point in life...I don't care which it does come from (Chan Heurng or what not) because I think many of the master since him have contributed and added their brilliance to the system.
That being said I am only interested in pure curiosity...similarities between forms with same name but of different lineages...at which point or degree of similarities can heavily suggest same origin or not. It's been so many years that even IF it did come from that same origin it would only make sense for it to be vastly different given the separation of development. However change still should come from the core aspect of the form. I am fascinated by the prospect.
HOWEVER just to turn this thread back into the right direction...
Sifu Frank you said BSCLF have only the three core forms: Sup Ji, Ping Kuen, and Kau Da Kuen.
My personal experience with BSCLF master said the same thing to me. I was curious though what about "Che Kuen"? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a0rWQZh9Hdg
Isn't it from Fut San Hung Sing? Shouldn't Buk Sing also have that form since it's the basic foundation form of your style? Or am I wrong?
周洪龍 金山鴻勝武舘 - 鴻勝佛家正宗
To be honest with you.....
They are nothing but mere tools. in others a kung fu dance. it's just a hand form. it won't make you levitate nor glow in the dark. still, the CLF between Chan Heung and Cheung Hung Sing was "SEPARATELY" developed. This is common knowledge.
Iron Silk, you are definitely entitled to be curious to everything that peeks your curiosity. However, I have NEVER been proven to be wrong in any my statements since i've been on this forum going back to 2001. Today in 2015, i still say the same things in regards to Chan Heung's gung fu and that of Cheung Hung Sing's.
If you know the history of CLF (especially Buk Sing), Tam Sam only learned 3 hand forms from Hung Sing Master Lui Chun. When he left Fut San and moved to Siu Buk, I don't have a clue to what he picked up after he left. Could a classmate of his share any more hung sing forms with him without the knowledge of Master Lui Chun? I would say that has some VERY strong possibilities. In fact, even I have been passed down forms from "HUNG SING" that are not of Yuen Hai's direct lineage. My Sifu (being the keeper of the Yuen Hai lineage) doesn't have that form. I do however and it is being taught in my club. If Sifu makes me his successor, that form will then be a part of USA Hung Sing. Until then, it remains a Hung Sing Hung Loong Mo Kwoon hand form.Isn't it from Fut San Hung Sing? Shouldn't Buk Sing also have that form since it's the basic foundation form of your style? Or am I wrong?
Should Buk Sing have Che Kuen? I would say no. Why? Because we don't exactly know "WHEN" the Fut San Hung Sing Che Kuen was created. i will say this tho, Fut San Che Kuen is much like Yuen Hai lineages Cheung Kuen. In fact, i personally believe that the Yuen Hai lineage Cheung Kuen was the original Cheung Kuen since Yuen Hai was Chan Ngau Sing's senior classmate (by 20 years or more). When Lau Bun came to the United States in the early 20's he was teaching Cheung Kuen. Till this day this very form is still passed down via my lineage while the alleged original Cheung Kuen outside of the USA was lost or forgotten. But it has been preserved in my lineage IMO.
Allow me to add this in tho.....if buk sing CLF developed MORE CLF forms exclusive to their lineage, it's still buk sing CLF. based off of Hung Sing CLF. There could possibly be tons of exclusive buk sing forms even between buk sing lineages. we just need to know what the core was and move forward from there to find the answers.
Furthermore, I would like to paint the picture this way. Cheung Hung Sing was a student of Chan Heung from 1836-1841 (five years). There is Zero documentation by Chan Heung of what he actually taught between the years of 1836-1841. Our history states Cheung Hung Sing was 12 years old when he started and was 17 years old when he was asked to leave King Mui (that's five years). We know Cheung Hung Sing was 69 years old when he passed away in 1893. Subtract 1893-69 = 1824. Born in 1824 + 12 years = 1836 (same year CLF was alleged to have been established). Add 1836+5 = 1841. So, what was Chan Heung teaching exactly between 1836-1841? Was it five forms? 10? no one really knows. Being that Lau Bun was an old school teacher and grand student of Cheung Hung Sing and how Lau Bun actually taught, we know that in a five year period you may get anywhere from 2-5/6 hand forms in 5 years depending on how fast the teacher taught his students. therefore, in saying this, not even Lau Bun had Che Kuen in his arsenol which was around the same time Tam Sam was learning and teaching. So, Che Kuen could be a new addition because we picked up the form in 2001 during our trip and dealings with our mother school in Fut San.
Last edited by hskwarrior; 06-12-2015 at 10:47 AM.
Hung Sing Boyz, we gottit on lock down
when he's around quick to ground and pound a clown
Bruh we thought you knew better
when it comes to head huntin, ain't no one can do it better
Registered User
Just wanted to pop in and say this is a very interesting and cool discussion, guys. Thanks for sharing, Sifu Frank (I'd rather refer tol you as Sifu Frank than hsk, if that's ok with you).
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