Don't Use Muscle

[WingChunABQ]

"Don't use muscle" was one of those mantras at the first WC school I studied in. It was always a bit puzzling to me because without muscle, we couldn't even hold our heads up let alone do kung fu. I came to understand that it means "use structure to generate power".

Is "don't use muscle" something that's been highly emphasized for others as well?

[sanjuro_ronin]

"Don't use muscle" was one of those mantras at the first WC school I studied in. It was always a bit puzzling to me because without muscle, we couldn't even hold our heads up let alone do kung fu. I came to understand that it means "use structure to generate power".

Is "don't use muscle" something that's been highly emphasized for others as well?

It is impossible NOT to use muscle.
What those things mean is to NOT OVERLY rely on brute strength.
Correct MA technique is when you apply strength at the right time of application of technique.

[hunt1]

Going to disagree a small bit sanjuro.

2 ways to do things: Internal, which has the prime focus of power generation from the skeleton and tendons. External prime focus of power generation from muscles like triceps etc.

Muscle is always involved however what is meant is not to focus on using muscle or strength but rather focus on using your skeleton and tendons.

For example in tennis the goal is to use your body, turning and twisting of your hips and waist to hit the ball. Your arm should be like a whip. It transmits the power generated by the body it does not generate the power itself.

Wing chun is the same. arm is the whip power comes from proper use of the body.

Most untrained people however generate power from contraction, tension of their muscles first.

Hence awlays being told to relax etc. tension in muscles actually holds power back. So the saying don't use muscle is a crude inaccurate way to try to convey the idea of let power generate and flow from the body and allow the arms to be amore whip like when striking.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Going to disagree a small bit sanjuro.

2 ways to do things: Internal, which has the prime focus of power generation from the skeleton and tendons. External prime focus of power generation from muscles like triceps etc.

Muscle is always involved however what is meant is not to focus on using muscle or strength but rather focus on using your skeleton and tendons.

For example in tennis the goal is to use your body, turning and twisting of your hips and waist to hit the ball. Your arm should be like a whip. it transmits the power generated by the body it does not generate the power itself.

It is impossible to move without muscular effort.
The human body does NOT work that way.

[hunt1]

Read what i wrote not what you think I wrote, Clearly said muscle is always involved!

Any activity that involves striking or just pure power generation the proper mechanics are the same and are in essence taught the same by qualified teachers. Tennis,Baseball,Golf', Olympic lifting or wing chun all the same

[sanjuro_ronin]

Read what i wrote not what you think I wrote, Clearly said muscle is always involved!

Any activity that involves striking or just pure power generation the proper mechanics are the same and are in essence taught the same by qualified teachers. Tennis,Baseball,Golf', Olympic lifting or wing chun all the same

Yeah I read and this here is one HUGE misconception:

2 ways to do things: Internal, which has the prime focus of power generation from the skeleton and tendons. External prime focus of power generation from muscles like triceps etc

You can't move, much less generate power from your skeleton and tendons without using muscular force.
Every athlete that needs to be quicker or more explosive works on building stronger muscles.

You said:

Muscle is always involved however what is meant is not to focus on using muscle or strength but rather focus on using your skeleton and tendons.

Thing is that you CAN'T use your skeletal structure without exerting muscular effort for focusing on using your skeleton and tendons means nothing really.

For example in tennis the goal is to use your body, turning and twisting of your hips and waist to hit the ball. Your arm should be like a whip. it transmits the power generated by the body it does not generate the power itself.

Have you seen the dominant arm of a tennis player?
A tennis stroke is a whole body action, including the arm, it is NOT simply a transmitter.
Notice the bodies of tennis players now?
Notice that are hitting faster, harder and playing more powerful?

Any activity that involves striking or just pure power generation the proper mechanics are the same and are in essence taught the same by qualified teachers. Tennis,Baseball,Golf', Olympic lifting or wing chun all the same

And what do coaches in Tennis, baseball, OL et all advocate to make their athlete faster, more explosive?

[Grumblegeezer]

It is impossible to move without muscular effort.
The human body does NOT work that way.

Of course. But the idea is to develop and employ structures (that could be seen as the skeletal and tendon aspect) and kinetic linkages that allow you to relax unnecessary muscle groups and maximise your efficiency. Less gas, more mileage.

Another thing is learning to borrow your opponent's force. Relax and use his power to augment yours.

On the other hand if you are huge and awesomely powerful, why bother? Unfortunately, I'm smallish and old. Gotta go with the 'chun.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Of course. But the idea is to develop and employ structures (that could be seen as the skeletal and tendon aspect) and kinetic linkages that allow you to relax unnecessary muscle groups and maximise your efficiency. Less gas, more mileage.

Another thing is learning to borrow your opponent's force. Relax and use his power to augment yours.

On the other hand if you are huge and awesomely powerful, why bother? Unfortunately, I'm smallish and old. Gotta go with the 'chun.

Of course, but all that

employ structures (that could be seen as the skeletal and tendon aspect) and kinetic linkages that allow you to relax unnecessary muscle groups and maximise your efficiency. Less gas, more mileage.

requires the use of muscles and the stronger they are the less effort you will have to use.
Luckily strength is one of the last things we lose as we get older and one of the things that we can hold on to the longest.
Its about the economic use of strength and, as with all things, the most strength you have to use economically, the better.
This of course goes beyond MA since the vast majority of us will need strength in our everyday lives for more than we will need MA.

[wenshu]

2 ways to do things: Internal, which has the prime focus of power generation from the skeleton and tendons. External prime focus of power generation from muscles like triceps etc.

As far as I know that is not even remotely close to an accurate definition of internal power generation.

I think what you mean to say is something like

心与意合，
xin yu yi he
Heart harmonizes with the Intent

意与气合，
yi yu qi he
Intent harmonizes with the Qi

气与力合；
qi yu li he
Qi harmonizes with the power/strength

手与足合，
shou yu zu he
hands harmonize with the feet

肘与膝合，
zhou yu xi he
elbows harmonize with the knees

肩与胯合
jian yu kua he
shoulders harmonize with hips

[YouKnowWho]

As far as I know that is not even remotely close to an accurate definition of internal power generation.

I think what you mean to say is something like

心与意合，
xin yu yi he
Heart harmonizes with the Intent

意与气合，
yi yu qi he
Intent harmonizes with the Qi

气与力合；
qi yu li he
Qi harmonizes with the power/strength

手与足合，
shou yu zu he
hands harmonize with the feet

肘与膝合，
zhou yu xi he
elbows harmonize with the knees

肩与胯合
jian yu kua he
shoulders harmonize with hips

Just had another discussion on another forum on "muscle group isolation" vs. "function body unification" work out in the gym. IMO, the "6 harmony" principle is so important for any TCMA guy's training. The "muscle group isolation" just go the complete opposite direction.

To have "6 harmony" ability without huge muscle vs. to have huge muscle without "6 harmony" ability is exactly what we are discussing here.

[WingChunABQ]

Just had another discussion on another forum on "muscle group isolation" vs. "function body unification" work out in the gym. IMO, the "6 harmony" principle is so important for any TCMA guy's training. The "muscle group isolation" just go the complete opposite direction.

To have "6 harmony" ability without huge muscle vs. to have huge muscle without "6 harmony" ability is exactly what we are discussing here.

Can you elaborate on the 6 Harmony stuff? I'm not sure I know what you mean.

[YouKnowWho]

"Don't use muscle"

The better words should be to "use your body to pull/push your limbs". All TCMA systems try to achieve this. It has nothing to do with "internal" and "external". For example, when you try to block a punch with your arm, you can do in the following 2 different ways:

- Move your arm and don't move your body. If you miss the blocking, your will get hit.
- Move your body and let your body to pull your arm. If you miss the blocking, since your body is already moved out of the striking path, you will not get hit.

I THINK what he means is that the internal stucture of the skeleton, when itis correct aligned, is what makes a move internal, as opposed to "just using your muscles" without proper form.

Try to assume that correct body alignment only exist in the "internal" system is rediculus IMO.

if you can describe an internal hip throw, we can close this mother down and exclaim that you have won the internetz.

I have expected to see an "internal hip throw" and "internal roundhouse kick" for over 10 years. So far I still have not yet seen any.

[nasmedicine]

"Don't use muscle" was one of those mantras at the first WC school I studied in. It was always a bit puzzling to me because without muscle, we couldn't even hold our heads up let alone do kung fu. I came to understand that it means "use structure to generate power".

Is "don't use muscle" something that's been highly emphasized for others as well?

Don't use muscle = Use proper body mechanics and physics (muscle use is always apparent just in as small of an amount as possible, otherwise you would not be able to move or stand or breath. "use 10 lbs to overcome 100 lbs")

[Sihing73]

Hello,

I believe that the issue is not that one should not use muscle but is instead that one must use muscle properly. As others have already pointed out there are many ways to do things, but all movement requires the use of muscle.

I think that the idea is to connect your body, and its various segments, from many parts which are seperate, to many parts working in concert. This unification of the body and use of the bodies structure is what allows one to generate great power.

Consider applying a pak to an opponents punch using the arm and shoulder alone. Now compare that to applying the same movement but using ones body movement/structure. With a step into the opponent where the pak acts more as a guide you may find you are capable of moving a much larger person off of the line.

Lowering ones center allows greater power generation without an increase in muscle or strength. It just takes getting everyting working together as a unit.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Hello,

I believe that the issue is not that one should not use muscle but is instead that one must use muscle properly. As others have already pointed out there are many ways to do things, but all movement requires the use of muscle.

I think that the idea is to connect your body, and its various segments, from many parts which are seperate, to many parts working in concert. This unification of the body and use of the bodies structure is what allows one to generate great power.

Consider applying a pak to an opponents punch using the arm and shoulder alone. Now compare that to applying the same movement but using ones body movement/structure. With a step into the opponent where the pak acts more as a guide you may find you are capable of moving a much larger person off of the line.

Lowering ones center allows greater power generation without an increase in muscle or strength. It just takes getting everyting working together as a unit.

Now couple that WITH strength and then you have one awesome fighter.