Don't Use Muscle

[Grumblegeezer]

...you CAN'T use your skeleton WITHOUT your muscles.

Obviously. Did anybody imply otherwise?

[sanjuro_ronin]

Obviously. Did anybody imply otherwise?

Imply?
Well, how do you read this implication?

2 ways to do things: Internal, which has the prime focus of power generation from the skeleton and tendons. External prime focus of power generation from muscles like triceps etc.

Internal = power generated from skeleton and tendons ( which do NOT generate power)
External: Power generated from muscles "like triceps etc.".

That seems to me to imply that muscles are NOT used when "generating" power from bones (skeleton) and tendons, no?

[wenshu]

2 ways to do things: Internal, which has the prime focus of power generation from the skeleton and tendons. External prime focus of power generation from muscles like triceps etc.

As far as I know that is not even remotely close to an accurate definition of internal power generation.

I think what you mean to say is something like

心与意合，
xin yu yi he
Heart harmonizes with the Intent

意与气合，
yi yu qi he
Intent harmonizes with the Qi

气与力合；
qi yu li he
Qi harmonizes with the power/strength

手与足合，
shou yu zu he
hands harmonize with the feet

肘与膝合，
zhou yu xi he
elbows harmonize with the knees

肩与胯合
jian yu kua he
shoulders harmonize with hips

[Brule]

Ah, I see now your just obtuse.

Proper technique is the proper use of the skeleton and joints to accomplish the task.

Using dead lift as an example. Most untrained people simply bend over and try to lift with their arms and upper back. This would be a version of external muscle first usage.

Proper lift is based on technique which is based on the use of knees, hips spine position. The arms are not the primary lifters arms insure the grip and prime goal is to maintain connection to the rest of the body through the shoulder joints. The power for the lift comes from engagement of the lower body muscles . This engagement is accomplished via the hips, knees and spine. this is internal usage. The use and alignment of the skeleton provides the platform over which the larger muscles are then engaged.

The lift is accomplished via use of the skeleton. If the skeleton is not used properly the lifter will not achieve maximum results and injury will eventually occur.

Sure tennis and all other athletics ruse weight bearing exercises in some form. However the technique used is based on the use of the ankles hip knee shoulder joints etc. Don't see any tennis players with 21 inch guns Focus is overall body not individual muscle development.

FINALLY !!! Someone providing a clear explanation of an internal deadlift. Now if you can describe an internal hip throw, we can close this mother down and exclaim that you have won the internetz.

[sanjuro_ronin]

FINALLY !!! Someone providing a clear explanation of an internal deadlift. Now if you can describe an internal hip throw, we can close this mother down and exclaim that you have won the internetz.

I THINK what he means is that the internal stucture of the skeleton, when itis correct aligned, is what makes a move internal, as opposed to "just using your muscles" without proper form.
If that is the case he is correct of course, and if that is the case then every powerlifter and weight lifter is an internal athlete since that is exactly what they do.

[WingChunABQ]

There's also all that stuff about Chi.

[YouKnowWho]

"Don't use muscle"

The better words should be to "use your body to pull/push your limbs". All TCMA systems try to achieve this. It has nothing to do with "internal" and "external". For example, when you try to block a punch with your arm, you can do in the following 2 different ways:

- Move your arm and don't move your body. If you miss the blocking, your will get hit.
- Move your body and let your body to pull your arm. If you miss the blocking, since your body is already moved out of the striking path, you will not get hit.

I THINK what he means is that the internal stucture of the skeleton, when itis correct aligned, is what makes a move internal, as opposed to "just using your muscles" without proper form.

Try to assume that correct body alignment only exist in the "internal" system is rediculus IMO.

if you can describe an internal hip throw, we can close this mother down and exclaim that you have won the internetz.

I have expected to see an "internal hip throw" and "internal roundhouse kick" for over 10 years. So far I still have not yet seen any.

[anerlich]

We seem to all be on the same page viz. that solid technique, leverage, overcomes brute strength applied with inferior technique ... unless your opponent is a bull elephant.

It's when you add the label "internal" that things get messed up.

Proper lift is based on technique which is based on the use of knees, hips spine position. The arms are not the primary lifters arms insure the grip and prime goal is to maintain connection to the rest of the body through the shoulder joints. The power for the lift comes from engagement of the lower body muscles . This engagement is accomplished via the hips, knees and spine. this is internal usage. The use and alignment of the skeleton provides the platform over which the larger muscles are then engaged.

So by doing heavy deadlifts with good technique, we're training internally rather than strength training? Long bow.

Somewhat cumbersome attempting to refute the need for muscular strength using a powerlifting and strength/power training movement as the example.

Done properly, learning to lift heavy can actually teach you to use your body more efficiently. At some level at least, technique is strength is technique.

Yelling out "don't use muscle" is poor pedagogy IMO. Better to say things like "Whole body, use the hips, like a whip" etc.

I'm smallish and old. Gotta go with the 'chun.

I'm probably older than you, but I do better at the chun and physical life in general when strong and old, rather than just old.

[k gledhill]

"Better to say things like "Whole body, use the hips, like a whip" etc."

[YouKnowWho]

As far as I know that is not even remotely close to an accurate definition of internal power generation.

I think what you mean to say is something like

心与意合，
xin yu yi he
Heart harmonizes with the Intent

意与气合，
yi yu qi he
Intent harmonizes with the Qi

气与力合；
qi yu li he
Qi harmonizes with the power/strength

手与足合，
shou yu zu he
hands harmonize with the feet

肘与膝合，
zhou yu xi he
elbows harmonize with the knees

肩与胯合
jian yu kua he
shoulders harmonize with hips

Just had another discussion on another forum on "muscle group isolation" vs. "function body unification" work out in the gym. IMO, the "6 harmony" principle is so important for any TCMA guy's training. The "muscle group isolation" just go the complete opposite direction.

To have "6 harmony" ability without huge muscle vs. to have huge muscle without "6 harmony" ability is exactly what we are discussing here.

[WingChunABQ]

Just had another discussion on another forum on "muscle group isolation" vs. "function body unification" work out in the gym. IMO, the "6 harmony" principle is so important for any TCMA guy's training. The "muscle group isolation" just go the complete opposite direction.

To have "6 harmony" ability without huge muscle vs. to have huge muscle without "6 harmony" ability is exactly what we are discussing here.

Can you elaborate on the 6 Harmony stuff? I'm not sure I know what you mean.

[YouKnowWho]

Can you elaborate on the 6 Harmony stuff? I'm not sure I know what you mean.

The human body is like 3 separate springs. Without training, those 3 springs will be compressed and released indepently. With training, all 3 springs can be compressed and released at the same time.

- Your "hand" and "foot" should start to move at the same time and stop to move at the same time.
- Your "elbow" and "knee" should start to move at the same time and stop to move at the same time.
- Your "shoulder" and "hip" should start to move at the same time and stop to move at the same time.
- The other 3 harmonies are a bit "abstract".

Again, this is just general TCMA guideline which has nothing to do with styles, or "internal" and "external" stuff.

[WingChunABQ]

Thanks! What about the 'abstract' ones?

[hunt1]

First I owe every apology. It was supposed to say The way I look at it. external is _ and internal is_. I messed up the typing and did not review to correct it. Internal= is just inside the body. Nothing more internal than your skeleton.


Now after that bingo. Sanjuro and everyone else seems to understand what I am saying.

Trying to type things in a way that everyone understands what I am saying seems to be more difficult for me than i thought. So many have different understanding of Wing Chun or TCM terminology in general I try to avoid using them and it seems cant be clear or precise in English either.

The basics being if your body does not work in harmony, unified etc etc nothing else you do will ever work the way its really supposed to. Yes people can make themselves functional or more while still not using body structure but they will always be short of what they could obtain

Chi is whole other subject. if you look at it as breath training then most wing chun people that punch fast don't use it because they hold their breath when they are punching. Most power lifters do use it because they coordinate their movement with their breath.

Chi, internal external names don't matter all humans have it , can build and train it and they do and often with out even having names for it.

[YouKnowWho]

Thanks! What about the 'abstract' ones?

I prefer to develop skill on the body instead of in my head. To wait for your brain to give order to your body is just too slow. The order should come from your "spin nerve (subconscious reflection)" instead. What you think you have is not what you truly have. Whatever that can come out of your body without the mind involved is truly what you have. When your opponent attacks you, your body respond naturally and you suddently realize that your opponent is down under your knee. To me, that's the true TCMA ability. I prefer to train my mind to be "blank" instead of

- 心与意合，xin yu yi he, Heart harmonizes with the Intent
- 意与气合，yi yu qi he, Intent harmonizes with the Qi
- 气与力合；qi yu li he, Qi harmonizes with the power/strength.

This way, even I'm drunk, I can still be able to defend myself if needed.