Disappointed with Wing Chun

[imperialtaichi]

"I found the concept of always making my actions attacking the most useful. Ving Tsun never, never speaks of just blocking an attack but rather to counter with another attack. Offence is the best form of defence. For example if for nine out of ten seconds I am concentrating on hitting you, then for nine seconds you must be defending. I therefore have a better chance of striking you. I never think or speak of just blocking an attack but rather how to counter attack an opponent. The skills gained from chi sao should enable my attacking force to somehow continue towards the opponent."

Very nice K, especially the last part.

Train to deal with the opponent, and you will always be a step behind, on the receiving end; make the opponent deal with you, and you will always be a step ahead. Make him play your game.

[Sihing73]

WSL: "I am very small, so large people used to attempt to take advantage of me. I had many opportunities to fight and use Ving Tsun. I found the concept of always making my actions attacking the most useful. Ving Tsun never, never speaks of just blocking an attack but rather to counter with another attack. Offence is the best form of defence. For example if for nine out of ten seconds I am concentrating on hitting you, then for nine seconds you must be defending. I therefore have a better chance of striking you. I never think or speak of just blocking an attack but rather how to counter attack an opponent. The skills gained from chi sao should enable my attacking force to somehow continue towards the opponent."

Now Kevin I thought you did not believe in Chi Sau and blame much of the arts decline on Chi Sau

Actually, I think Chi Sau is a piece of the pie and an essential piece but not the only piece.

[k gledhill]

Now Kevin I thought you did not believe in Chi Sau and blame much of the arts decline on Chi Sau

Actually, I think Chi Sau is a piece of the pie and an essential piece but not the only piece.

Ahhhh, there you go, chi-sao is a highly contentious process.....some combat each other within its boundaries, while others drill to attack, counter attack, attack, counter attack ad infinitum ...allowing themselves to be guinea pigs in the mutual exchange, ego-less.
Iow deliberately making mistakes for each other, allowing hits for lat sao jik chung so each knows they have a serious punch or an air tag. Creating an atmosphere of development for a common goal so we have reflex responses because our PARTNERS didn't stick endlessly to our arms in a battle of futility.
IOW Not a chi-sao competition, which is detrimental to each student, who thereby create a war zone of contact with arms .
I can list many clips of this, but guys get all huffy and slap challenges ensue...
The results of such bad chi-sao, are that when you fight a guy who doesn't stick to arms, he has an advantage over you because HE is attacking you with 2 arms for 9 of 10 seconds while you search for a bridge to stick to for 10, redundantly .

Now I am not talking about a chain punch, this is laughably the most common reason guys get their butts handed to them. We develop a more sophisticated ability to strike and defend in the same attacking beat, lin sil di da, da sao jik siu sao, so we CAN attack, every move AND create simple defensive lines of cutting punches, using angling and mobility to change seamlessly with a resisting opponent.

Who stands the better odds of winning the fight ? the guy searching to build a bridge or the one attacking the gaps made by the bridge builders errors of arm chasing in space before you. Simple yet genius, let the guy move and hit him , seeing this clearly is half the battle to understanding VT fighting.

Chi-sao done correctly, serves as a stepping stone to free-fighting without hesitation in 'what to do next' moments. It rids us of common errors of retracting before acting.

We try to develop the ability to deliver a seamless attack / counter attack , its a skill. And not over attack an arm, etc... then do it at the speed of reflex reactions.

[k gledhill]

Very nice K, especially the last part.

Train to deal with the opponent, and you will always be a step behind, on the receiving end; make the opponent deal with you, and you will always be a step ahead. Make him play your game.

Yes, VT is self -correction , according to YM>WSL>PB, meaning we rid ourselves of the multitude of errors or ways we would enter to attack another.
The center-line defines what sides we cut into, interceptions ensue, attacking attacks, cutting into the opponents timing, all this is a skill process we adopt.

Tactically we use chi-sao as role playing too, what side a leading line of force comes from...how we counter attack angle to it or attack it directly, thoughtlessly.

Lap sao drills have a lot of this, but many just get an endless grab n chop idea. Its a more sophisticated method of mutual conditioning at mindless reaction to pak, jut, bong punch, we create the atmosphere of relaxation, reflex speed enhancement. We 'use' each other rather than fight each other to just get a hit in and say , "I won, i'm bad"

[nunchuckguy]

I don't really think that's the case. Have you done a scientific study or something? Other than of Youtube vids and forum posts?

Just look at the Ip Man Cup, man. Are you satisfied with that level of skills? Or are they the carefully selected few that do not at all reflect the real power of the rest of the WC guys?

[GlennR]

Just look at the Ip Man Cup, man. Are you satisfied with that level of skills? Or are they the carefully selected few that do not at all reflect the real power of the rest of the WC guys?

Is that a horse race?

[anerlich]

Just look at the Ip Man Cup, man. Are you satisfied with that level of skills? Or are they the carefully selected few that do not at all reflect the real power of the rest of the WC guys?

I haven't looked at it ... man. I'm looking at my WC training buds who fought successfully in MMA and kickboxing, and students of other Wing Chun guys like Alan Orr and Phil Redmond who have succeeded as well.

Anyway, if you're so concerned, what plans do you have to rectify it, other than whingeing on a web forum?

[k gledhill]

Just look at the Ip Man Cup, man. Are you satisfied with that level of skills? Or are they the carefully selected few that do not at all reflect the real power of the rest of the WC guys?

The ip man cup was mainly sanda fighters, a friend of mine was there.

[Lee Chiang Po]

After studying Wing Chun for a few years and looking at countless full contact "Wing Chun" fights, I am sorry to say I am quite disappointed with the modern time Wing Chun.

Have we already lost some of the most important elements of Wing Chun training of the past, when Wing Chun was a combative system effective for real fights?

Does Wing Chun only look good in drills and Chi Sao? What should Wing Chun look like in real fights?

We always hear stories of legendary Wing Chun masters like Ip Man, Wong Shun Leung, Duncan Leung and how they easily defeated various kinds of martial arts sifus. But if among millions of Wing Chun pilgrims around the world, only a handful of people really are able to fight properly with Wing Chun. What are the common and deep rooted misunderstandings that are hindering all of us?

All these questions you would still ask no matter what style or system of fighting you study. The reason is because you live in an invironment where you do not have to use it regularly, and are not likely to ever have to use it at all. In this case you would question any thing you do. It is not just Wing Chun that would come under question here. You can't be concerned at what it looks like. The only thing that matters is what kind of results it gives you. Sparring and play fighting is not ever going to give you the answers you seek either. Just study and practice and enjoy what you do in the hopes that if it ever comes down to it you can handle yourself. No matter how bad ass you might be, you can always walk into one and get knocked out. Fighting is not really an exact science yet. That's why when you fight, you go all out and pull no punches. You should probably stop messing around utube too. You can not really learn anything there by watching random videos.

[Sihing73]

IOW Not a chi-sao competition, which is detrimental to each student, who thereby create a war zone of contact with arms .

The results of such bad chi-sao, are that when you fight a guy who doesn't stick to arms, he has an advantage over you because HE is attacking you with 2 arms for 9 of 10 seconds while you search for a bridge to stick to for 10, redundantly .

Who stands the better odds of winning the fight ? the guy searching to build a bridge or the one attacking the gaps made by the bridge builders errors of arm chasing in space before you. Simple yet genius, let the guy move and hit him , seeing this clearly is half the battle to understanding VT fighting.

Chi-sao done correctly, serves as a stepping stone to free-fighting without hesitation in 'what to do next' moments. It rids us of common errors of retracting before acting.

We try to develop the ability to deliver a seamless attack / counter attack , its a skill. And not over attack an arm, etc... then do it at the speed of reflex reactions.

Kevin,

With this I am in total agreement. Chia Sau is not a competition and is not fighting but is or can be a valuable resource for training the contact reflexes. The attributes can carry over into a fight and that is what makes it such a valuable tool. IMHO, when done correctly training will allow one to make solid contact with an oppontnet/partner. There is little benefit with being able to "touch" an opponent/partner if the "touch" is little more than a slap and has no real structure.

[SavvySavage]

The short answer is one of these:
1. The old timers trained much differently than we train today and only passed on the shell of wing chun.

2. The old timers were mainly only good fighters amongst themselves(inbreeding) and never REALLY tested it outside of their comfort zone.

3. If wc training is supposed to be what it is today than it might be that they were just drills that were given to established fighters. These fighters, who were strong as hell already, added wc to their wheel to make them fight a certain way that others weren't.

People have to constantly bring up the old timers because there is a lack of modern day wc heroes. They just aren't there. It seems in today's environment you have to supplement your wc with mma. This might sound like blasphemy to many but the wc fighters of old were already strong skilled fighters before learning wc drills.

[sanjuro_ronin]

When people that train WC train it for fighting and fight with it they get better at, *gasp* fighting with it.
WSL was able to use his WC to fight because he fought and developed the skills to fight with his WC.
He fought those that were NOT WC and was not a "slave" to the very limited skill set that is developed when WC only "fights" WC.
The problem with WC AND every OTHER MA that only "fight themselves" is that they only get good at "fighting themselves".

[k gledhill]

When people that train WC train it for fighting and fight with it they get better at, *gasp* fighting with it.
WSL was able to use his WC to fight because he fought and developed the skills to fight with his WC.
He fought those that were NOT WC and was not a "slave" to the very limited skill set that is developed when WC only "fights" WC.
The problem with WC AND every OTHER MA that only "fight themselves" is that they only get good at "fighting themselves".

Agree, we should not be fighting ourselves in chi-sao drills, but developing the skills required to attack opponents mindlessly.

[sanjuro_ronin]

Agree, we should not be fighting ourselves in chi-sao drills, but developing the skills required to attack opponents mindlessly.

Indeed.
What are the chances that a WC practitioner will have to use his skills VS another WC guy outside his school?
So why train to counter a "WC attack" when what you will probably see is NOT a "WC attack"?

[Phil Redmond]

Indeed.
What are the chances that a WC practitioner will have to use his skills VS another WC guy outside his school?
So why train to counter a "WC attack" when what you will probably see is NOT a "WC attack"?

This is why I tell people to throw horizontal fists like street fighters, Karateka, Boxers, and other fighters. Why train only against vertical fists when you're going to encounter more horizontal fists in the real world?