Ahhhh, there you go, chi-sao is a highly contentious process.....some combat each other within its boundaries, while others drill to attack, counter attack, attack, counter attack ad infinitum ...allowing themselves to be guinea pigs in the mutual exchange, ego-less.
Iow deliberately making mistakes for each other, allowing hits for lat sao jik chung so each knows they have a serious punch or an air tag. Creating an atmosphere of development for a common goal so we have reflex responses because our PARTNERS didn't stick endlessly to our arms in a battle of futility.
IOW Not a chi-sao competition, which is detrimental to each student, who thereby create a war zone of contact with arms .
I can list many clips of this, but guys get all huffy and slap challenges ensue...
The results of such bad chi-sao, are that when you fight a guy who doesn't stick to arms, he has an advantage over you because HE is attacking you with 2 arms for 9 of 10 seconds while you search for a bridge to stick to for 10, redundantly .
Now I am not talking about a chain punch, this is laughably the most common reason guys get their butts handed to them. We develop a more sophisticated ability to strike and defend in the same attacking beat, lin sil di da, da sao jik siu sao, so we CAN attack, every move AND create simple defensive lines of cutting punches, using angling and mobility to change seamlessly with a resisting opponent.
Who stands the better odds of winning the fight ? the guy searching to build a bridge or the one attacking the gaps made by the bridge builders errors of arm chasing in space before you. Simple yet genius, let the guy move and hit him , seeing this clearly is half the battle to understanding VT fighting.
Chi-sao done correctly, serves as a stepping stone to free-fighting without hesitation in 'what to do next' moments. It rids us of common errors of retracting before acting.
We try to develop the ability to deliver a seamless attack / counter attack , its a skill. And not over attack an arm, etc... then do it at the speed of reflex reactions.
Last edited by k gledhill; 03-04-2012 at 08:52 PM.
Yes, VT is self -correction , according to YM>WSL>PB, meaning we rid ourselves of the multitude of errors or ways we would enter to attack another.
The center-line defines what sides we cut into, interceptions ensue, attacking attacks, cutting into the opponents timing, all this is a skill process we adopt.
Tactically we use chi-sao as role playing too, what side a leading line of force comes from...how we counter attack angle to it or attack it directly, thoughtlessly.
Lap sao drills have a lot of this, but many just get an endless grab n chop idea. Its a more sophisticated method of mutual conditioning at mindless reaction to pak, jut, bong punch, we create the atmosphere of relaxation, reflex speed enhancement. We 'use' each other rather than fight each other to just get a hit in and say , "I won, i'm bad"
I haven't looked at it ... man. I'm looking at my WC training buds who fought successfully in MMA and kickboxing, and students of other Wing Chun guys like Alan Orr and Phil Redmond who have succeeded as well.
Anyway, if you're so concerned, what plans do you have to rectify it, other than whingeing on a web forum?
"Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
"We are all one" - Genki Sudo
"We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
"Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander
WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
Don't like my posts? Challenge me!
All these questions you would still ask no matter what style or system of fighting you study. The reason is because you live in an invironment where you do not have to use it regularly, and are not likely to ever have to use it at all. In this case you would question any thing you do. It is not just Wing Chun that would come under question here. You can't be concerned at what it looks like. The only thing that matters is what kind of results it gives you. Sparring and play fighting is not ever going to give you the answers you seek either. Just study and practice and enjoy what you do in the hopes that if it ever comes down to it you can handle yourself. No matter how bad ass you might be, you can always walk into one and get knocked out. Fighting is not really an exact science yet. That's why when you fight, you go all out and pull no punches. You should probably stop messing around utube too. You can not really learn anything there by watching random videos.
Jackie Lee
Kevin,
With this I am in total agreement. Chia Sau is not a competition and is not fighting but is or can be a valuable resource for training the contact reflexes. The attributes can carry over into a fight and that is what makes it such a valuable tool. IMHO, when done correctly training will allow one to make solid contact with an oppontnet/partner. There is little benefit with being able to "touch" an opponent/partner if the "touch" is little more than a slap and has no real structure.
The short answer is one of these:
1. The old timers trained much differently than we train today and only passed on the shell of wing chun.
2. The old timers were mainly only good fighters amongst themselves(inbreeding) and never REALLY tested it outside of their comfort zone.
3. If wc training is supposed to be what it is today than it might be that they were just drills that were given to established fighters. These fighters, who were strong as hell already, added wc to their wheel to make them fight a certain way that others weren't.
People have to constantly bring up the old timers because there is a lack of modern day wc heroes. They just aren't there. It seems in today's environment you have to supplement your wc with mma. This might sound like blasphemy to many but the wc fighters of old were already strong skilled fighters before learning wc drills.
When people that train WC train it for fighting and fight with it they get better at, *gasp* fighting with it.
WSL was able to use his WC to fight because he fought and developed the skills to fight with his WC.
He fought those that were NOT WC and was not a "slave" to the very limited skill set that is developed when WC only "fights" WC.
The problem with WC AND every OTHER MA that only "fight themselves" is that they only get good at "fighting themselves".
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !