Disappointed with Wing Chun

[k gledhill]

Indeed.
What are the chances that a WC practitioner will have to use his skills VS another WC guy outside his school?
So why train to counter a "WC attack" when what you will probably see is NOT a "WC attack"?

We develop skills WITH each other, not to fight each other. Role playing and skill enhancement rather than "what will you do if my tan does this ? Oh, I will control with my fook sao and be unbeatable and defeat you "

Exactly what are the chances you will fight another VT guy outside Nobody punches with elbows in and down like us.

[Mutant]

The results of such bad chi-sao, are that when you fight a guy who doesn't stick to arms, he has an advantage over you because HE is attacking you with 2 arms for 9 of 10 seconds while you search for a bridge to stick to for 10, redundantly .

Now I am not talking about a chain punch, this is laughably the most common reason guys get their butts handed to them. We develop a more sophisticated ability to strike and defend in the same attacking beat, lin sil di da, da sao jik siu sao, so we CAN attack, every move AND create simple defensive lines of cutting punches, using angling and mobility to change seamlessly with a resisting opponent.

Who stands the better odds of winning the fight ? the guy searching to build a bridge or the one attacking the gaps made by the bridge builders errors of arm chasing in space before you. Simple yet genius, let the guy move and hit him , seeing this clearly is half the battle to understanding VT fighting.

Chi-sao done correctly, serves as a stepping stone to free-fighting without hesitation in 'what to do next' moments. It rids us of common errors of retracting before acting.

We try to develop the ability to deliver a seamless attack / counter attack , its a skill. And not over attack an arm, etc... then do it at the speed of reflex reactions.

This is VERY well stated and I completely agree that herein lies some of the major malfunctions of wing chun practitioners.

[LoneTiger108]

So why train to counter a "WC attack" when what you will probably see is NOT a "WC attack"?

This was one of the first questions I asked when I started to learn basic postures. My teachers answer was simple, he never attacked me with a 'Wing Chun' attack, as his Sifu never did either! They were both well trained in general Chinese Martial Arts and could 'mimic' almost any system quite effectively considering how simple and limited the Wing Chun system can be perceived.

We use Wing Chun peers to train our interactive habits and reflexes, not to fight against. Ever. I consider 'sparring' to be another interactive exercise, so yes we would spar but actually 'fight' each other?? That just has never felt quite right for me...

[Sean66]

Great post there, Kev! Agree 100%

[Mutant]

I think there are a lot of factors that can conspire to relegate Wing Chun to the fringe in terms of modern fighting arts. I don't think there is anything inherently flawed with Wing Chun itself; the principles, techniques and energies are sound.

When 'applied' to solve the actual relevant fighting challenges one may face today (reality or sport fighting), its a great operating system. But one has to really FIGHT with it, not use it for pseudo-fighting masterb@tion. Which is tough for people learn how to apply it against real violence, chaos, and people not playing by a stereotypical WC rule set. Most WC people, sifu's and students, don't know what the heck a real fight is, whether outside the kwoon in personal defense or in competition. So yeh, I can see how a lot of people who get into this art with great expectations turn sour and disenchanted. A lot of time they're listening to the wrong people present the wrong approach and answers to the challenges at hand. They don't really allow their students or themselves to think outside the box and fight creatively with this stuff. Things can only be applied in a certain way to answer the limited questions that they're asking, not the challenges that the world is presenting. And they become so enamored with certain drills that they think that is sparring or even fighting, while its just an old set of drills that do have value in teaching specific lessons, but are not complete answers. And thus people become completely confused about what a fight is and how to apply their Wing Chun. They get the idea of ranges and applications of various techniques at ranges completely screwed up. And then of course its not going to work against a skilled and conditioned (thats a whole other story about so many WC people not being in actual fighting condition) combatant from another style, whether it be western boxing, Muay Thai, Sanda, MMA, etc.

I LOVE a lot of the history and technical discussions on energies and such, one of the best things about this forum. But it always derails when people get overly pedantic and use the wrong core mission statements when applying their art. They somehow want the 'style' to fight for them, and the history of their ancestors and dogma of their particular branch to win all the battle, interweb or actual... A lot of the beliefs about what will work if just applied a certain way can be astounding. Wing Chun is its own worst enemy. Almost none of the branches get along or provide consistent answers, and way too much of the energy is focused in the rearview mirror.

In order to get by with that approach, the various Wing chun circles get more and more insular, existing successfully in a bubble that has little to do with reality. Only training against other students doing the exact same thing, looking to a pedantic sifu who doesnt know what real power or violence looks or feels like. And on top of that, these cultures usually spend an inordinate amount of time cutting down other styles verbally, like there's a style wide low self esteem complex.

Its gotten into a viscous cycle. In this state at this point, it only attracts mostly non-athletes. Its run by enablers and protectors who have no intention of going hard against REAL contemporary combat sports practitioners or other skilled and trained stylists. When there are videos, they're usually against someones 'friend who trained in 'x', who is usually terribly inexperienced -or- the WC guys getting killed by someone who is actually decent. And the more the style looks bad and doesnt produce many fighters, the more naturally gifted potential fighters will naturally seek out other training formats. And we're left with something thats more akin to an Anachronistic Society Convention with practitioners LARPing and wondering why the help they can't apply their arts during moments of sobriety.

[Mutant]

Please pardon my epic post, er, rant... A lot of frustration with the style that I usually don't talk about.

This could largely be said about the state of Kung Fu in general these days in addition to Wing Chun, although we've become the poster child for this. Sad state of affairs, really. No offense meant to you guys with this. I really do enjoy a lot of the discussion threads here. And I believe Wing Chun to likely still salvageable with the right approaches, because there is so much to the art that has value. Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on the matter, for what ever the hell its worth. Cheers.

[GlennR]

I think there are a lot of factors that can conspire to relegate Wing Chun to the fringe in terms of modern fighting arts. I don't think there is anything inherently flawed with Wing Chun itself; the principles, techniques and energies are sound.

When 'applied' to solve the actual relevant fighting challenges one may face today (reality or sport fighting), its a great operating system. But one has to really FIGHT with it, not use it for pseudo-fighting masterb@tion. Which is tough for people learn how to apply it against real violence, chaos, and people not playing by a stereotypical WC rule set. Most WC people, sifu's and students, don't know what the heck a real fight is, whether outside the kwoon in personal defense or in competition. So yeh, I can see how a lot of people who get into this art with great expectations turn sour and disenchanted. A lot of time they're listening to the wrong people present the wrong approach and answers to the challenges at hand. They don't really allow their students or themselves to think outside the box and fight creatively with this stuff. Things can only be applied in a certain way to answer the limited questions that they're asking, not the challenges that the world is presenting. And they become so enamored with certain drills that they think that is sparring or even fighting, while its just an old set of drills that do have value in teaching specific lessons, but are not complete answers. And thus people become completely confused about what a fight is and how to apply their Wing Chun. They get the idea of ranges and applications of various techniques at ranges completely screwed up. And then of course its not going to work against a skilled and conditioned (thats a whole other story about so many WC people not being in actual fighting condition) combatant from another style, whether it be western boxing, Muay Thai, Sanda, MMA, etc.

I LOVE a lot of the history and technical discussions on energies and such, one of the best things about this forum. But it always derails when people get overly pedantic and use the wrong core mission statements when applying their art. They somehow want the 'style' to fight for them, and the history of their ancestors and dogma of their particular branch to win all the battle, interweb or actual... A lot of the beliefs about what will work if just applied a certain way can be astounding. Wing Chun is its own worst enemy. Almost none of the branches get along or provide consistent answers, and way too much of the energy is focused in the rearview mirror.

In order to get by with that approach, the various Wing chun circles get more and more insular, existing successfully in a bubble that has little to do with reality. Only training against other students doing the exact same thing, looking to a pedantic sifu who doesnt know what real power or violence looks or feels like. And on top of that, these cultures usually spend an inordinate amount of time cutting down other styles verbally, like there's a style wide low self esteem complex.

Its gotten into a viscous cycle. In this state at this point, it only attracts mostly non-athletes. Its run by enablers and protectors who have no intention of going hard against REAL contemporary combat sports practitioners or other skilled and trained stylists. When there are videos, they're usually against someones 'friend who trained in 'x', who is usually terribly inexperienced -or- the WC guys getting killed by someone who is actually decent. And the more the style looks bad and doesnt produce many fighters, the more naturally gifted potential fighters will naturally seek out other training formats. And we're left with something thats more akin to an Anachronistic Society Convention with practitioners LARPing and wondering why the help they can't apply their arts during moments of sobriety.

Excellent post

[Vajramusti]

Lots of overgeneralizations about wing chun going on in this thread and often others.
Wing chun is not a community and not consistent across lineages on stances, footwork.concepts, principles. training, contact work- you name it.

If someone is dis-satisfied with their wing chun- I am not- makes sense for them to do something else.

joy chaudhuri

[anerlich]

Excellent posts by Mutant and Joy.

Wing chun is not a community

And certainly not a family.

[Grumblegeezer]

Please pardon my epic post, er, rant... A lot of frustration with the style that I usually don't talk about.

This could largely be said about the state of Kung Fu in general these days in addition to Wing Chun, although we've become the poster child for this. Sad state of affairs, really. No offense meant to you guys with this. I really do enjoy a lot of the discussion threads here. And I believe Wing Chun to likely still salvageable with the right approaches, because there is so much to the art that has value. Anyway, those are some of my thoughts on the matter, for what ever the hell its worth. Cheers.

Mutant, no need to apologize. You bring up some very good points. I visited your website and see that your gym has a core mission of training fighters but also welcomes others who are not really into fighting at that level, but are very serious about intense and realistic training. It's a fact that most WC groups don't have this kind of focus. It's something worth addressing.

[Buddha_Fist]

We develop skills WITH each other, not to fight each other. Role playing and skill enhancement rather than "what will you do if my tan does this ? Oh, I will control with my fook sao and be unbeatable and defeat you "

Exactly what are the chances you will fight another VT guy outside Nobody punches with elbows in and down like us.

Yup, that's why Chi-Sao competitions are a complete waste of time. It's taking a skill building drill, putting it in a different context, and draw wrong conclusions from it. Want to compare fighting skill? Just frickin' spar...

[Buddha_Fist]

I...And we're left with something thats more akin to an Anachronistic Society Convention with practitioners LARPing and wondering why the help they can't apply their arts during moments of sobriety.

What I call Kung-Fu Trekkies... Enamored with silk suits, ancient authentic martial songs, secret butterfly palm techniques, incense sticks, martial art conventions, Bruce Lee posters, etc.
And when it boils down to rock'n roll... it just looks like $hitty Kick-boxing...

[SavvySavage]

Lots of overgeneralizations about wing chun going on in this thread and often others.
Wing chun is not a community and not consistent across lineages on stances, footwork.concepts, principles. training, contact work- you name it.

If someone is dis-satisfied with their wing chun- I am not- makes sense for them to do something else.

joy chaudhuri

So you're partially arguing that if his wc system doesn't have it another one will? You don't believe that the answer could lie wound the scope of the wc lens?

[k gledhill]

Yup, that's why Chi-Sao competitions are a complete waste of time. It's taking a skill building drill, putting it in a different context, and draw wrong conclusions from it. Want to compare fighting skill? Just frickin' spar...

No thought of elbow development , just target practice ...gotcha first moments, epic

[Lee Chiang Po]

If you want your Wing Chun to prove itself to you, then use it for fighting. Not sissy sparring or chi sau, but stick in a mouth piece and go at it. Make a few rules. You can't deliberately break a persons bones or kill him, and when someone hits the floor you go to a neutral corner. If it takes more than a few minutes to take him down, your stuff needs work.