Buk Sing and Lee Koon Hung

[crazyfistmonk]

What would you consider to be the major differences/similarities in Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut forms as compared specifically to Lee Koon Hung line Choy Lay Fut forms? Do you think the close interaction that Poon Sing, Lee Koon Hung, and Tat Mau Wong had with several major Buk Sing players (Dave and Vince Lacey, etc.) had any influence on how these schools now play their forms?
My teacher (from Hong Kong) claimed Buk Sing, but from my own research and comparing the forms I learned with those of other Choy Lay Fut schools, I see a strong resemblance to those forms as practiced within the Lee Koon Hung line. This prompted me to start asking some serious questions regarding cross-pollination of styles especially where these particular schools are concerned.
Keep in mind that I personally consider forms to be of secondary importance to fighting practice, physical conditioning, and free sparring where developing real fighting skill is concerned. However, these same forms are our martial inheritance and should therefore be maintained.

I look forward to your responses, comments, and observations.

[hskwarrior]

What would you consider to be the major differences/similarities in Buk Sing Choy Lay Fut forms as compared specifically to Lee Koon Hung line Choy Lay Fut forms?

First one is quite obvious......the buk sing lineage is hung sing while Lee Koon Hung's lineage is more chan family. so material would be one difference. totally different.

[CLFNole]

The only thing I can say is we never use closed fist punches but rather always use a version of chop choy when we punch (yeung chop, yum chop, cheung ahn choy (ping chop). I always thought of this as an "influence" from buk sing since Tam Sam was very famous for his usage of the chop choy.

Other than that I don't think we have too much connection other than sifu being friends with a variety of other CLF sifus (buk sing, hung sing and chan family). Like Frank mentioned the majority of our sets come from the Chan Family Hung Sing line from Chan Koon Pak. We kind of have our own flavor and style but this isn't uncommon for any style or school.

[TenTigers]

from watching Lee Koon Hung perform, he does have the same long arm extended movements Buk Sing is known for. They play their forms very "big." So his flavor can be seen as Buk Sing'ish, while the content may be different.

[CLFNole]

Yes we do play our forms somewhat long but if you look at enough CLF in general you will see it played in all different kinds of way...long, short, medium. Heck if you look at Tat Mau Wong's CLF they play it shorter than we do and it has its own flavor.

[TenTigers]

Yes we do play our forms somewhat long but if you look at enough CLF in general you will see it played in all different kinds of way...long, short, medium. Heck if you look at Tat Mau Wong's CLF they play it shorter than we do and it has its own flavor.

I think that's one of the things I like about CLF-it can be played many ways-and they all are cool ;-) I like the fast, long explosive movement, but I also like the short, quick movement, as well as when it is played softer and lighter.

[hskwarrior]

I think that's one of the things I like about CLF-it can be played many ways-and they all are cool ;-) I like the fast, long explosive movement, but I also like the short, quick movement, as well as when it is played softer and lighter.

Yeah, CLF can be performed in a number of ways. In the past, individual flavor confused other CLF people but the more they watched the more they came to realize its CLF. It can be PERFORMED anyway you feel like it. My sifu developed his flavor as well.

[CLFNole]

I think it is important for each person to develop their own flavor. Within our lineage alone there is a variety and during my 18 years of doing CLF I noticed my style has changed and evolved. I think it is important to start long to really get extension and flexibility but as we age it will tend to become a bit shorter. I also feel too extended is not as practical.

[TenTigers]

I think it is important for each person to develop their own flavor. Within our lineage alone there is a variety and during my 18 years of doing CLF I noticed my style has changed and evolved. I think it is important to start long to really get extension and flexibility but as we age it will tend to become a bit shorter. I also feel too extended is not as practical.

But...extension is important from the standpoint of longevity, as you are constantly using full range of motion and maintaining flexibility and strength of the joints. That's why some of the old CLF guys still look good. I think Sifu Lacey once mentioned that Buk Sing does not have a separate chi-gung set as the forms have it woven into them by virtue of the large, extended movements which not only maintain flexibility of the joints, but open up the meridians as well.

[CLFNole]

I agree completely...I am not saying the extension shouldn't be there I was more thinking (but not typing) that some movements become a bit shorter. I still extend pretty big but in certain parts I realized I was overextended then tweaked it over time.

For health purposes it is a positive factor as we too do not have an internal set like some of the other CLF branches.

[Jimbo]

I also really like the variations within CLF.

Our main lineage, from Sigung John Lem, plays very differently from other CLF that I've seen. More shorter movements with some long. Also, some of the sets are played going straight forward and back (and in some instances, just straight ahead, or ahead then off-angle.

We also have Hung Sing and Chan family sets as well.

*sorry, a bit OT.

[hskwarrior]

I think it is important for each person to develop their own flavor. Within our lineage alone there is a variety and during my 18 years of doing CLF I noticed my style has changed and evolved. I think it is important to start long to really get extension and flexibility but as we age it will tend to become a bit shorter. I also feel too extended is not as practical.

By looking at our pictures of Lau Bun i feel the original style was much shorter than the long style we see today. For example, the longer your reach the less protected you are. That makes short to medium range the preferred distance for combat in our lineage. so during the "FORMS CRAZE" people copied the longer style because it makes our hands flowery.

combative CLF is ugly. my sifu always said compared to the LKH lineage our forms were ugly because of the emphasis. then there was the craze of everyone wanting to lengthen their moves.

Good thing is now CLF has returned to the combative stage again and hopefully one day we will have reps in MMA or the UFC.

[Shaolindynasty]

There is a difference between full extension and over extension. The way I learned it from my sifu was to extend fully but not to hyperextend. That way you still are training to devlop power but not to extend to the point of leaveing yourself vulnerable. At shaolin temple they have a saying "straight but not straight", I think it fits what my sifu taught me very well.

I don't think the vairations that we are talking about between schools and individuals in this thread are based on some intentional divergance other than individuals prefer to execute the movements in different ways. I know that even between my kungfu brothers and I there is some variation in the way the movements are done, even though we are taught the same.

[TenTigers]

I don't think the vairations that we are talking about between schools and individuals in this thread are based on some intentional divergance other than individuals prefer to execute the movements in different ways. I know that even between my kungfu brothers and I there is some variation in the way the movements are done, even though we are taught the same.

sorry to sound argumentative on this thread, must be that time of the month....
but...

Buk Sing's extension is purely intentional, and was one of Tarm Sam's specialties.
In fact, Gen.Dave Lacey can hit you with his charp-choy from six feet away!
(been there, been hit with that:-)

let me add that I have also seen other families play with that same reach. whether or not it was due to influence, or cross training with BSCLF guys, I have no idea. But it is a hallmark of BSCLF from my understanding.

[Shaolindynasty]

What I meant, which may not be clear from the way I wrote it, is that their is no unified decisions to move the system in one way or the other.

Tam Sam was originally of the futsan hung sing school, he decided he liked to do things a certain way based on what worked for him. That is why there is a difference.

People who were his kung fu brothers at the futsan hung sing school all did things different. This happens in every school

The only difference in this case is people chose to name it a different lineage