WhatEVEROriginally Posted by Tom Kagan
Registered User
WhatEVER
Wing Chun Fighter
The only flaw to your statement is that just because you loose a fight to someone doesn't mean they are right?
I sure the gracies have lost some fights to people. Does that make them wrong?
Even Mike Tyson has lost a fight...does that make him wrong?
The issue is not the style or system of fighting you use. Its not even the effectiveness of a given fighting art. It all boils down to the skill level of the one using the style.
If someone has a crappy martial art system. But their skill level is higher than everyone else they fight...That bull crap fighting system they use will work for them. Not because of the style. But because of them.
They have superior strength,stamina, agility, speed, timing, power and accuracy and percision in advoiding getting hit while landing hits on the other person.
A person who is more skilled will when the fight...not a person with a superior martial art or superior training?
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
Joined this list Feb 2001
So, you're waiting on foot at an intersection for the light to change and the traffic to stop moving. Right after, you step off the curb. Suddenly a car comes barreling down the avenue headed straight for you. It runs you over and continues off, out of sight.
Question: Did you have the right of way?
Answer: Who the f@ck cares? You're dead.
So, you're whining about how the style of martial art you practice doesn't get respect from the fighting community. You cannot point to sufficient independent proof that the style is, indeed, effective. And when you personally fight, you lose.
Question: Is your style effective?
Answer: Who the f@ck cares? You lost.
One thing is certain after you lose a fight: It's time for you and your style to shut up. Tough luck, too bad. Stop being such a d@rk.
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by your response. Are you saying you cannot provide independent proof, or are you saying your website makes an inaccurate claim regarding the teachings at your school being applicable to a sport fighting context?WhatEVER
When you control the hands and feet, there are no secrets.
http://www.Moyyat.com
Mike Patak
Hi Tom. Nice to see a familiar name after being away for so long. Hope life is good. Give my best to William and family.
GM of Hadaka Korosu
And doneQuestion: Is your style effective?
Answer: Who the f@ck cares? You lost.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Wing Chun Fighter
The ideology is you win some and you loose you some...There are numerous videos of WC loosing to guys of other styles...Does that mean forget WC an learn how to kickbox or muay thai or mma? No...it simply means you need more practice so your skill level will be higher!
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
Registered User
Sometimes Kagan is one funny mofo. Love it. All that moderation over at Bullshido must have rubbed off.
Last edited by Wayfaring; 04-13-2012 at 05:40 PM.
Registered User
Actually it might be beneficial to actually go and watch how kickboxers, mt, and mma guys approach their practice to see what you might need to change in how you practice.
The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same things and expect different results.
Registered User
Agree 100% there.
This remind me something happened many years ago. After a guy lose his fight, he complained, "What can I do? My opponent has long arms and long legs." From his comment, he had never sparred with people who had long arms and long legs before. If he doesn't find a sparring partner with long arms and long legs, he will lose his fight exactly the same way if the same condition will meet.
Last edited by YouKnowWho; 04-13-2012 at 08:59 PM.
Registered User
I genuinely think WC guys should cross-train vigorously.
Grand Ultimate
perhaps
Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die...
Banned
These are some of the things that I’ve recognized (train of thought) from each training form: Sil Lum Tao, Chum Kil and Wooden Man that kept me from deviating from true wing chun structure and to maintain power while sparring in a full contact situation. This is what always seems to keep me in check while sparring (a blessed situation). I’ll talk more about the ‘Wooden Man’ later; have to get back to work.
Sil lum Tao: Form Integrity
To even begin the idea of real time application (clean & recognizable), you have to make sure that the upper extremities from structure to structure connects to and through your stance; and if your stance training focus on sinking energies, which helps keeps the hands very relaxed and responsive to physical reactions with structural integrity from a form/stance point of view. Each movement (application) of your SLT form should literally jam, wedge or slice its way right into your stance. Once you lose your stance in fighting, you’re no longer doing wing chun.
You’re taught to reroute energies with structures in SLT, you can’t do that without a good stance. The more you can control your balance (stance) while under pressure (fighting), the more you can stay calm and responsive with the idea of structural integrity/awareness; that keeps your opponent uncomfortable and off balanced when crowding his/her space. Don’t think about footwork, just stay in your stance no matter what and let your feet move naturally; with or without the idea of bracing (stance alignment with upper extremities); depends on your offense or defense and what you decide to do with them.
The hands will automatically make room to move around, just from having a comfortable seat to sit in (good stance) and from the idea of training structural integrity/awareness. And if one can master the idea of, “he goes fast then you go slow and in reveres; the same for, “he uses hard energies, and then you use soft energies, while training in his/hers drills. That’s mastering the idea of timing and structural/transitional awareness. It’s nothing like beating your opponent by being in the right place and at the right time.
Your hands and arms must have a very strong relationship with your stance (second nature) before the feet can recognize the hands in movement, hence inviting the connection to the early stages of body unity through your stance and upper/lower extremities, which helps promote the idea of: the feet following the hands (Chum Kil).
I’ll do a lot of shadow boxing to always maintain a good connection between my feet and hands.
http://youtu.be/UQ66geARK1c
Also with free style movements in a two man situation which stress the best or proper structure within an open flow of energies (structural integrity).
http://youtu.be/i-l9Awtnd5E
Chum Kil: Form Integrity
‘Sil Lum Tao’ doesn’t trust you to take one step in that form. It isn’t very much more that one can say or do; as far as applications in this stage (CK) because SLT is the seed, and if you fu*ked that up (no mastery), then you need to start over. Don’t just do SLT, but master it. The main thing for me when dealing with ‘Chum Kil’ is mobility, speed and balance; while learning how to put fuel into your overall wing chun structures.
The most common mistakes wing chun fighters make are: they keep their feet and hands separated from their stance while engaging. They look all good before contact is made; with a great and impressive looking wing chun pose to boot. But, when contact begins, they forget to take their feet with them on entry; therefore cutting their stance/energy in half, and can’t produce any recognizable wing chun structures from that point on because they lost their center of gravity -or- balance (looks unrecognizable and very bad).
The stance is the first thing you really need to master, waaaay before the hands. See, it’s like a tree, the thought or foundations/mastering one’s center of gravity are the tree roots, stance and -or- the tree trunk (interdependent structures). Concentrate on this because this development causes a relationship between the applications or limbs using the proper energies from a stance point of view, as the tree’s roots follow the sway of the branches, forming the idea of body unity (moving stance) and while moving the feet naturally with the hands.
The hands are like the leaves. A soft leaf represents a healthy leaf, which tells the tree branch to swing and sway lively and freely. A hard leaf represents a dying leaf, which tells the tree branch to harden up for the winter -or- die. If your tree doesn’t grow healthy (the right combinations of interdependent structures), the roots will never follow/support the sway of the branches (body unity/chum), yet alone, stay in season without reading the leaves (the right application when needed from reaction); meaning the feet will never recognize the hands.
When moving, your applications must move in the form of one, driving each structure together within its place as each intent/outcome of application is only derived through the energies of interdependent structures, and the feet follow the hands through body unity, this is why you’re taught to do the Chum Kil form fast as possible without deviation once you learned it, and have it under control. It’s like building a new relationship between your hands and feet through your stance, while never losing the mentality of SLT when moving; mentally/physically connecting the two forms together.
http://youtu.be/YH2RgRoiQ50n
Last edited by Ali. R; 04-23-2012 at 08:53 AM.
GM of Hadaka Korosu
I think you need to re-read what you wrote there.perhaps
Practice is suppose to equal BETTER results and when it doesn't, practice gets modified.
Basic learning 101.
Psalms 144:1
Praise be my Lord my Rock,
He trains my hands for war, my fingers for battle !
Banned
I believe that there shouldn’t be any sparring in wing chun (three/five years sometimes longer until one has mastered the first three sets.). When dealing with wing chun in a application standpoint, you deal with things that you haven’t experience through life on a regular bases: structures, energy, concepts, and so on. Some men will sometimes take things with an aggressive push or too much zeal, which in most cases it turns physical. There are a lot of things that one can do to develop reflexes, timing, body unit, positioning without knocking each other’s teeth out.
It’s no wonder why some of the history of this system was accredited to women (sensitivity); who knows, maybe its reverse psychology too actually slow down man’s aggressive nature while training in wing chun. Because I think the idea of physical experience (aggressiveness/free style) before the mind is truly stimulated is just a waste of time.
By not understanding the metaphysical connection between what you’re doing and trying to do, and while doing something you truly don’t understand (sparring) is only counterproductive within the true nature from what you’re trying to accomplish or develop. Sil Lum Tao, Chum kil and Wooden Man: are all training forms, if you truly master those forms and the concepts within them; from a stance/form point of view, then everyone will recognize what you’re doing and your skill level will show.
And if one hasn’t trained in a contact sport and doesn’t understand the depth in which one has to gracefully block, pull or counter, he’ll never be able to land a single strike or punch without taking a head shot himself, it takes a strong mental awareness to pull this off and that’s dealing with something natural; like, something you’ve been doing all your life (jab, left, right, hook.).
You have to train everything to the point of it becoming second nature to be able to pull off recognizable wing chun while maintaining strong structural integrity. To get in a ring with something you don’t have by second nature is only about pride or near suicide (just my opinion).
YOU can’t develop good wing chun that way; unless you already have a very strong understanding of body unity and structure awareness to the point of it being second nature (Sil Lum Tao, Chum kil, Wooden Man) and to use it in real time and for it to be successful and recognizable just like anything else in life. When spending so much time deviating, one will become lazy and sour to true or real development within one’s own system in which he or she studies. Hence pushing the idea of the physical or sparring, while trying to supplement their understanding; before it’s truly understood and mastered from a very basic standpoint.
When one can’t do the class work they immediately try to prove their point/value by rushing to the job (physical/free style/applications) and most of the time they fail without the right education. This is why some can’t tell the difference between wing chun or kick boxing when seeing a sparring situation, and what you haven’t mastered will show up in your sparring (trained eye.). That should be even more of a good reason to stick with the training forms as long as one can (If the ego allows It.); to have a solid foundation, is to have working applications, the fastest way to true wing chun development.
A lot of wing chun practitioners/fighters sometimes develop a bad foundation from a stance point of view. If you truly understand how to re-route energy within your stance -or- defend yourself with very little movement/effort and without being pushed, picked up or pulled from your stance, while letting the lower extremities move naturally.
Only then will you have a strong chance to develop a recognizable interpretation of what your system is; or look like within a metaphysical idea -or- in real time application; meaning that the lower extremities will recognize the upper extremities when under pressure, physically forming the idea of body unity. Then everyone can clearly see what is; and what you’ve done while sparring.
Wing Chun has a great inside game (clinch, traps and sensitivity) which all stems from a very strong stance. In which keeps this fighting system recognizable and clean to the eye. We should have a good understanding of structural awareness (upper extremities) in which connects and keeps a strong stance manageable and mobile while the feet follow the hands.
We’re quick to rush in judgment (physical) to prove a point; by not giving our sensitive train of thought a chance to examine. And it’s not based in what system you may train in that causes deviation, but it’s one’s own train of thought. Anyway, it’s your development within the system that counts.
Ali
Last edited by Ali. R; 04-24-2012 at 11:37 AM.
Registered User
I completely disagree. Look at what the functional or combat arts are doing for comparison. You see people walking in off the street with zero training, and within one year be able to effectively compete in an amateur MMA match complete with striking and grappling. And the one year of training is from the more conservative or better schools. Many fly-by-night schools will go with the trial-by-fire method of putting someone in a fight within three months.
If you wait 3 years before any sparring in wing chun, in comparison that aligns with a MMA fighter having around 6 or 7 amateur fights, and being almost ready to turn pro. Starting to spar then is going to put someone so far behind it will be next to impossible to catch up.
I think there should be sparring from day one in training. There are plenty of ways to control that to help provide exposure to noobs without detrimental effects.
Or I guess the alternative is to stop promoting rhetoric around building fighting skill, and just accept the inevitable conclusion of building standard businessmen into paper mache tigers.
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