Slu Lin tau ko kuit from red boat

[Hendrik]

Just an observation...

You mention that the text you posted is in the 'Beijing Museum' but I see the use of modern simplified chinese characters (?)

The kuit of emei or the lotus cannon is in the Beijing museum.

The text picture I post is the explanation of that particular sentence by Gm chow cien cuan in the 1950. This is the 1950 piece.

Hope this clear up .

[Hendrik]

I completely agree with what you say here Hendrik, but how can we connect Yik Kams understanding (which has also been though the Cho Family mix) to what Ip Man passed to the West?

Though the cho family mix is your own opinion.

My suggestion is , why don't you study and know what it is as it Is before any further action?

[Hendrik]

The question Joy is, will this sort of research that Hendrik is obviously so passionate about be of any use whatsoever to the many Wing Chun students and teachers who seem to not care about the history or culture of our martial ancestors??

The kuit is technology of WCK.

The history or culture is only to understand the language to decode the technology language.


If one knows the third and fourth line of the kuit, one will never ask about those 0 100 or 50 50 stuff. One will never ask how to do WCK short Jin. Those are no longer questions, but a clear direction has been provided to handle the issue naturally according to WCK .

That is the impact of the kuit. Just two sentences. It is the ticket to reality. That is transformation which will transform WCK over night. Not even over night but in one hour.

Can I deliver ? Not me.

But the WCK ancestor always deliver .

it is just we never learn what they say or never listen. If we keep running round, shaolin shaolin, taiji taiji , rooting rooting, 50 50 0 100, my way your way. No one will even see what is obvious in front of one's eyes. So, are we study wing Chun or we make up what we like to make?

[LoneTiger108]

That is the impact of the kuit. Just two sentences. It is the ticket to reality. That is transformation which will transform WCK over night. Not even over night but in one hour.

Can I deliver ? Not me.

Once again, thanks for responding Hendrik. I think we are getting better at this type of conversation and research!! But...

Why do you say you can't you deliver this knowledge?

But the WCK ancestor always deliver .

it is just we never learn what they say or never listen. If we keep running round, shaolin shaolin, taiji taiji , rooting rooting, 50 50 0 100, my way your way. No one will even see what is obvious in front of one's eyes. So, are we study wing Chun or we make up what we like to make?

I think what you could try harder to understand, from my point of view I have studied & trained Wing Chun. I started learning from a line of kuit and this has never changed up to this very day. I still teach line by line too, with varied interpretations, and this is what I am very very proud of (and why myself and my Kung Fu Brother set up The Yum Yeurng Academy)

I am quite familiar with Martial literature, which is why I feel what you have presented here is a treasure, but I wish you could see that other families that existed even after Ip Man passed away still have reference to this method of teaching. And if they do not, this doesn't mean that they automatically fall into the category of 'not knowing' anything at all about Wing Chun!!

I have met and exchanged with some superb Martial Artists, both within my own family and beyond, and none of them had access to or even needed this type of kuit to develop into decent practitioners. In fact I would go as far to say that my own 'addiction' to this sort of knowledge has only ever slowed me down lol!! It helps for teaching purposes, but sometimes the best teaching is actually received through ACTION and not TALKING or READING.

So, please SHOW something outside of form lectures etc because surely you can demonstrate this whole piece of kuit, no?

Just an after thought...

[Hendrik]

Once again, thanks for responding Hendrik. I think we are getting better at this type of conversation and research!! But...

Why do you say you can't you deliver this knowledge?



I think what you could try harder to understand, from my point of view I have studied & trained Wing Chun. I started learning from a line of kuit and this has never changed up to this very day. I still teach line by line too, with varied interpretations, and this is what I am very very proud of (and why myself and my Kung Fu Brother set up The Yum Yeurng Academy)

I am quite familiar with Martial literature, which is why I feel what you have presented here is a treasure, but I wish you could see that other families that existed even after Ip Man passed away still have reference to this method of teaching. And if they do not, this doesn't mean that they automatically fall into the category of 'not knowing' anything at all about Wing Chun!!

I have met and exchanged with some superb Martial Artists, both within my own family and beyond, and none of them had access to or even needed this type of kuit to develop into decent practitioners. In fact I would go as far to say that my own 'addiction' to this sort of knowledge has only ever slowed me down lol!! It helps for teaching purposes, but sometimes the best teaching is actually received through ACTION and not TALKING or READING.

So, please SHOW something outside of form lectures etc because surely you can demonstrate this whole piece of kuit, no?

Just an after thought...

1。I say I cant deliver because I am just a messenger. It is not my invention.

2. The different between you and me is, I take this writing as a description of a technology . No more no less. And you take it as something else.

3. This thread is on the WCK on the red boat 1850. Thus, it is not about something outside the record. Again, we need to learn to know what is it instead of take it as what we like to think.

[LoneTiger108]

1。I say I cant deliver because I am just a messenger. It is not my invention.

2. The different between you and me is, I take this writing as a description of a technology . No more no less. And you take it as something else.

3. This thread is on the WCK on the red boat 1850. Thus, it is not about something outside the record. Again, we need to learn to know what is it instead of take it as what we like to think.

All fair points, but I think you are still misunderstanding me.

1. Wing Chun itself is nobodies invention? Yet we are named after the lady who dedicated her life to Martial Art teaching, according to stories. Which in essence makes us all messengers.

But by being a messenger, you HAVE to deliver. We are not simply talking of a theoretical stsyem here. No Matter whether you agree with it's developments over time or not, everybody who is now teaching or has taught Wing Chun before has had their individual input. Right or wrong doesn't matter. It's happened.

2. I understand that you take this type of kuit as a 'technology' because that's possibly been your own lifes influences on your interpretation of the art. I do look at some of the more internal expressions in that way of course, but I have direct experience using certain kuit to actually pass on methods of Wing Chun too! Practises that emulate the lines. As others have also learnt the fearless fighting nature of our art too, without the need for this technology or any kuit whatsoever.

And maybe that's specifically because the lines I have been exposed to are of that nature, and what you have learnt is more 'technology' based. No right or wrong again imho, but you are convinced otherwise aren't you?

Your way is the 'correct' way and all that, which may well be true!! But until you actually find a way to deliver this knowedge in a practical manner so we can see where you are coming from then we're still only researching knowedge, for research sake.

3. I don't quite know what to say about this except what do you actually know about Chinese/Canton Opera itself? What experience have you got performing Martial Art in such a manner? What differences are there in the training?

Your answers will already tell you what you need to know about the connection of Wing Chun to the Opera troupes. And in my little experience submerged in this type of culture through learning directly with my Sifu, the methods used to train were far from just a simple 'technology' for the mind to contemplate.

It was more Lights, Camera, ACTION!!

[Hendrik]

All fair points, but I think you are still misunderstanding me. --------

Could be.



1. Wing Chun itself is nobodies invention? Yet we are named after the lady who dedicated her life to Martial Art teaching, according to stories. Which in essence makes us all messengers. --------

The reality in china is technology is a revolution and evolution. Thus, wing Chun technology doesn't come out from thin air from no body.

That is different compare with the story told in the shows brothers movies.



But by being a messenger, you HAVE to deliver. We are not simply talking of a theoretical stsyem here. No Matter whether you agree with it's developments over time or not, everybody who is now teaching or has taught Wing Chun before has had their individual input. Right or wrong doesn't matter. It's happened.---------


A messenger deliver only message. The message is there is a time capsule of 1850 available to be investigate. It is up to others to take or leave the message.




2. I understand that you take this type of kuit as a 'technology' because that's possibly been your own lifes influences on your interpretation of the art. I do look at some of the more internal expressions in that way of course, but I have direct experience using certain kuit to actually pass on methods of Wing Chun too! Practises that emulate the lines. As others have also learnt the fearless fighting nature of our art too, without the need for this technology or any kuit whatsoever. ---------


The Technology is based on the definition define by the Chinese technologiest in the past. In this case the emei and white crane. If one want to know what it is one has to
Study those instead of making personal interpretation.




And maybe that's specifically because the lines I have been exposed to are of that nature, and what you have learnt is more 'technology' based. No right or wrong again imho, but you are convinced otherwise aren't you? -----


You are still thinking what it is rather then knowing what it is a technology.





Your way is the 'correct' way and all that, which may well be true!! But until you actually find a way to deliver this knowedge in a practical manner so we can see where you are coming from then we're still only researching knowedge, for research sake.------


May be you cannot taste the tea because you didn't empty your cup.




3. I don't quite know what to say about this except what do you actually know about Chinese/Canton Opera itself? What experience have you got performing Martial Art in such a manner? What differences are there in the training? --------


There is no need to go around and speculate and making personal interpretation.

Just take things as it is.



Your answers will already tell you what you need to know about the connection of Wing Chun to the Opera troupes. And in my little experience submerged in this type of culture through learning directly with my Sifu, the methods used to train were far from just a simple 'technology' for the mind to contemplate.----------

Why do one needs to go round and round when one just have to take the kuit, decode it with the language written it. And know what it is?




It was more Lights, Camera, ACTION!! . -------

The issue is it is not about making movie but can one's slt training take one to the level slt needs to take one to.

[LoneTiger108]

Again, thanks for spending a little time to give me some feedback. I notice that you like to be brief, so I will try and do the same!

The reality in china is technology is a revolution and evolution. Thus, wing Chun technology doesn't come out from thin air from no body.

That is different compare with the story told in the shows brothers movies.

A little condescending don't you think? It's ok, but I was only saying what has been said from many teachers to many students. Yim Wing Chun and her teacher Ng Mui is a common story that has nothing whatsoever to do with any Shaw Bros movie

A messenger deliver only message. The message is there is a time capsule of 1850 available to be investigate. It is up to others to take or leave the message.

Understood.

The Technology is based on the definition define by the Chinese technologiest in the past. In this case the emei and white crane. If one want to know what it is one has to Study those instead of making personal interpretation.

I am more interested in Wing Chun technology that is present in everything I have trained (of which there is a key technology imho) This may or may not have direct connection to Emei and White Crane, but I at least know for a fact that it is directly connected to Ip Man 'first'. I wuldn't want to throw out his lifetimes work.

You are still thinking what it is rather then knowing what it is a technology.

But this is all we can all do Hendrik. We have no real example of this technology you talk of in practical and familiar action. Because as far as I am seeing, you are the only one using this Emei kuit to teach 'Wing Chun'. And this in all honesty is why I am interested to see how you move, and especially how you move in an interactive environment.

Am I the only one interested?

May be you cannot taste the tea because you didn't empty your cup.

And how do I empty my cup exactly?

Why do one needs to go round and round when one just have to take the kuit, decode it with the language written it. And know what it is?

Hmmm because 'real' kung fu is bl00dy hard work!!?? There is definitely more to Wing Chun than reading but you must know this already?

I will leave it there because I don't want to continue going over the same old ground. I enjoyed what you have shared, and attempted to offer some honest feedback. It's up to you to see if you can take on board what I am trying to share with you.

[fan]

if i may just offer an opinion, and i am no expert, from what i was told, kuen kuit or fist formulas are present in many CMA in varying quantities. these formulas are not intended to be instructions per se but more as a reminder of key points, a memory aid and/or a very high level syllabus guide.

some are rhyming, others have a musical quality, these verses are really memorable to native speakers. they certainly do not replace direct teaching but without them something substantial about the art is also lost.

on the subject of chinese opera, it can just be a convenient lineage denominator at a practical level. thus there is the hong kong line, the futsan line, the gulao line, and the red boat opera line.

not getting into the discussion here, just making this one post.

[LoneTiger108]

... some are rhyming, others have a musical quality, these verses are really memorable to native speakers. they certainly do not replace direct teaching but without them something substantial about the art is also lost.

Your input is welcome. And believe me when I say 'I know what you mean' because this is the way I learnt Wing Chun from Day 1. I understand some of the varieties kuen kuit comes in too, and I'm NOT a native speaker! My Sifu expected my interest.

All this stuff is great, and I'm not trying to take anything away from Hendriks' contribution but the 'Operatic' line is not the only one to learn in such a manner FME.

hong kong line, the futsan line, the gulao line, and the red boat opera line.

Not meaning to sound rude, but this is just simple marketing strategy and you forgot the 'Rebel Killer line' I've read about recently lol! And if I wanted to ruffle feathers I would insist on people researching my own Sigung and Sifu, because what I learnt seems to be an almagamation of ALL these 'so-called' lineages, yet when I first demonstrated we were 'not Wing Chun' according to feedback from the Wing Chun community in the UK.

I am interested in Wing Chun. Period. Where it has been influenced, from whatever area of the World or individual matters for historical reference, but to me that's all it is. Reference.

I am more interested in where we are all at today as a united system. A Martial 'Pye'

[YouKnowWho]

there is the hong kong line, the futsan line, the gulao line, and the red boat opera line. ... Rebel Killer line ...

For some unknown reason WC guys seem to be over concern about which line that they may come from. If we compare the WC system to the Chinese wrestling system, the Chinese wrestling system contains Beijing line, Tianjing line, Baoding line, Mongoloan line, ShanXi line, and Yi minority line. The Beijing line and Tianjing line had been merged into one in the past 50 years. The interest thing is no matter which Chinese wrestling line that you may come from, the whole Chinese wrestling system will be considered as one single family. No Chinere wrestler will declare that his method is better than the other Chinese wrestler's method. Not sure why this kind of big family thinking won't also apply to the WC system.

As far as to discuss what our ancestor did hundreds years ago, it may be more important to talk about what we can do today instead. When I read any TCMA book, I always skip the history chapter and go directly into the technique chapters.

[Hendrik]

if i may just offer an opinion, and i am no expert, from what i was told, kuen kuit or fist formulas are present in many CMA in varying quantities. these formulas are not intended to be instructions per se but more as a reminder of key points, a memory aid and/or a very high level syllabus guide.

some are rhyming, others have a musical quality, these verses are really memorable to native speakers. they certainly do not replace direct teaching but without them something substantial about the art is also lost.

on the subject of chinese opera, it can just be a convenient lineage denominator at a practical level. thus there is the hong kong line, the futsan line, the gulao line, and the red boat opera line.

not getting into the discussion here, just making this one post.

There are too many ways opinions could go.

so, let's take a look on the evidence from the past , instead of guessing what happen in 1850 red boat ; where all these lines not born yet.


The following is a sample of both the emei kuit and its present day explanation of what the Emei 12 Zhuang Kuit is for. Take a look and compare them and observe what are the similarities with the Yik Kam SLT kuit, also what are they are for. also, one can see where the eight method of legs comes from.


〕气平立正平肩裆，两掌前起半阴阳，后臂平肩等胸阔，前肘微屈对鼻梁，大指翘立齐眉际。四指轻联并雁行。再 将左右任分腿。。

解释：这段十四句讲的是练法，前八句讲动作，后六句讲动作时的要求。

起势要求双脚同肩宽，平行，略内扣，双腿自然直立，口唇紧闭，舌抵上腭，然后双臂前举，双手掌心相对，上臂 同肩齐，小臂同胸宽，掌心相对齐鼻，竖起大拇指齐眉高，双目平视前方，身要正，气要平，这是平肩裆。接着四 指像大雁飞行排成一字向两侧分开，同时左腿向左跨出一小步，把平肩裆变成一字裆，像个“大”字 。

在左腿向左跨出一小步时，须加进练腿的动作，称为足部八法...




one can see, there are so much details just in the first five lines of Yik Kam SLT Kuit for the YJKYM.


聚意會神平肩檔。兩手前起分陰陽
左腿跘出有善惡。右跟屈勁緊反藏
會合丹田督脈降。.


one can see three of the five lines is almost identical with the emei 12 zhuang kuit.

with the definition from the emei 12 zhuang, one can see details handling are very well define within these lines . one also could see from this 1850 sample what is the standard of the YJKYM mastering.

Compare those with today's evolution YJKYM one could see what is the different. also, is it true that " just keep training, and you will get there" is true in the past? or SLT is about details , details, and details very clearly describe and handle?

So, ask a question, how is one's YJKYM handling by the standard of 1850? I have asked myself that question in the 1980s and it shocked me.

[Hendrik]

For some unknown reason WC guys seem to be over concern about which line that they may come from. If we compare the WC system to the Chinese wrestling system, the Chinese wrestling system contains Beijing line, Tianjing line, Baoding line, Mongoloan line, ShanXi line, and Yi minority line. The Beijing line and Tianjing line had been merged into one in the past 50 years. The interest thing is no matter which Chinese wrestling line that you may come from, the whole Chinese wrestling system will be considered as one single family. No Chinere wrestler will declare that his method is better than the other Chinese wrestler's method. Not sure why this kind of big family thinking won't also apply to the WC system.

As far as to discuss what our ancestor did hundreds years ago, it may be more important to talk about what we can do today instead. When I read any TCMA book, I always skip the history chapter and go directly into the technique chapters.

take a look at the technology of 1850 then one can see what is it the single family is about.

but if one place line before and more important then technology then that is a different path.