Slu Lin tau ko kuit from red boat

[LoneTiger108]

similarity does not mean the same.I do NOT see a taiji influence

Are you talking of your own Wing Chun training here Joy, or referring to the cip I posted?

Yiou will find that the opening sequence in the clip is exactly what Hendriks' first 2 lines represent.

Ip Man;s roots are different from Cho's, methinks

Of course I am aware of this, BUT my own Sigungs contact with the Cho Family and other lineages still strongly suggest a Shaolin/Traditional Southern flavour in the sets that Ip Man was aware of (and changed)

The question is, is it still relevant to Wing Chun today? Personally I think it is.

[Hendrik]

To be honest, I don't think many people will care either way about what Hendrik is attempting to present because very few people have really looked into the language of our art.

I agree that the specific lines he is sharing are not generic kuen kuit as we are familiar with, as they are instructions not advice lines. But they are still quite common to traditional Chinese Martial Arts, and dare I say some Taichi influence is definitely present in the opening and expressions

聚意會神平肩檔。兩手前起分陰陽
Gather the yi (intention), join with the shen (spirit), even shoulder stance.
Raise the hands in front, split into yin and yang.

左腿跘出有善惡。右跟屈勁緊反藏
Left leg steps out has good or evil. Right leg crouches power (ging) is tightly stored.

This for example is classical Taichi Hoisik from my understanding and experience. Check the similarity to this opening set http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrqrWaUS3sg

Wing Chun from Ip Man does not do this. Wing Chun prior to Ip Man does not do this. So at some point did we change from stepping out with the left leg to opening the toes into kim yeung ma, or as I practise heel to toe to kim yeung ma (as in traditional southern arts)??

Still a treasure in all respects, but we shouldn't get carried away with fantasy ideals that may have had little to no influence on modern Wing Chun for very good reasons

For the fun of it.


Is it quite common to tcma, is it taiji influence?



1. Let's take a look at the first two phrase you quote above,

----------
聚意會神平肩檔。兩手前起分陰陽
Gather the yi (intention), join with the shen (spirit), even shoulder stance.
Raise the hands in front, split into yin and yang.

------------




Let see what happen .

The following is the first two phrases from emei 12 zhuang.

----------
氣平正立平肩襠。兩掌前起半陰陽。

Breathing calmly , stand proper, even shoulder stance.
Raise the palms in front, half yin and yang.

-----------

So, take a look at the meaning, the position or sequence, the writing style.
See for yourself how close are they from copying?
Not to mention , There are many phrases within this yik kam slt kuit is like that.




2. Also, sorry, your YouTube taiji hoisik does not implement The kuit above.
Why? Because there is a uniqueness in both the emei and slt the taiji YouTube doesn't follow.
And that is the kam Yong or clamping the yang. So it is this type of details one want to know.

The secret of kam yong is in fact hidden in the first phrase . Knowing the first phrase knowing kam Yong naturally. Also take a look at the yik kam kuit, see how many naturally it keeps remind?


3. The 跘 is more precise translate to trip instead to step out. It is open or moving the left leg side way like tripping some one when throwing him. Many of us open yjkym the way, trip left trip right.

So, again it is not what as seen in the taiji YouTube.





4. In addition , can it be accident that some one some how accidentally email the 800 years old top secret in emei mountain to the red boat for yik kam in 1850 to copy?

Ask those emei people, they will tell you before 1950 where dr. Chow release it to public, these writing can only be accessed by one Buddhist monk per generation for past 800 years since 1200. In song dynasty. This is much older than taiji of Ming dynasty.


But, hold on, remember the snake and crane story of wing Chun comes from the west side of kwantong or canton and Miu soon fuse emei snake and white crane?



5.Not to mention from the above kuit all those who train in internal art knows in order
To do 集意會神 Gather the yi (intention), join with the shen (spirit) Need to do 氣平正立 breathing clamly stand proper, And the key is the 平肩襠Or equal shoulder stance.


6.See, the key in a kuit is about both the big picture , the details, and the uniqueness.
Only with that one can turn on the engine to see what the engine is. One needs to get deep into every details because it is a process of implementation a certain thing.
There are no accident, but an engineering process in details.

In these four phrases above, many detials in the 5 layers are describe explicit and implicitly.
I brought up five layers here because One needs to handle all the five layers to handle the process.

[LoneTiger108]

Also, sorry, your YouTube taiji hoisik does not implement The kuit above.
Why? Because there is a uniqueness in both the emei and slt the taiji YouTube doesn't follow.
And that is the kam Yong or clamping the yang. So it is this type of details one want to know.

Ok but I was talking about the opening set only, as I can't see any reference to kim yeung in those first two lines (?) The movements they suggest are exactly as in the clip I posted.

The secret of kam yong is in fact hidden in the first phrase . Knowing the first phrase knowing kam Yong naturally. Also take a look at the yik kam kuit, see how many naturally it keeps remind?

Yes I understand what you are saying, but this is basic Ip Man Wing Chun imo and something I was taught using another term, not 'kam yong'.

Have you heard the term Lap Lim 立念 ?

One needs to get deep into every details because it is a process of implementation a certain thing.

So if all the effort was put into the Yik Kam kuit you are presenting here, there will be these 'details' in further texts surely? And if they're not and details are left to the imagination or verbal instruction only then there would be no point in attempting to understand the kuit you have presented here Hendrik!

of course, I also understand that every Sifu is different and will release what they want when the want, as my own Sifu does to this day...

[Hendrik]

Ok but I was talking about the opening set only, as I can't see any reference to kim yeung in those first two lines (?) The movements they suggest are exactly as in the clip I posted.____


In fact, by evidence of the YouTube.

the taiji guy is standing in an opposite way of kam Yong in the very begining.
Once that happen the continous move is totally different.

Not to mention, the Chen tai ji set art is a moving based and the slt is a standing based art.

One needs to get into this deep of details to know what is what when it comes to internal art and kuen kuit.

Kam Yong, what is it, why is it, is cover in detail in both the slt and emei kuit above 。kam Yong is needed to have a even, balance, calmly breath, gather intention...ect state. That is the key of even or equal shoulder stance. The natural way of even shoulder stance.

While the taiji YouTube guys is doing the opposite due to his requirement of his art. Nothing wrong but different. However, if one import that into slt, that is trouble and will cause unstable that s certain.


So, these are very distinct different type of Kung fu cultivation.

One doesn't see the kam Yong in the first two lines because one needs to know this is a "high level programming language" one needs to know the language to know the machine code made up the language. In fact the "even" in the first line is calling for kam Yong machine code.






Yes I understand what you are saying, but this is basic Ip Man Wing Chun imo and something I was taught using another term, not 'kam yong'.----------


Doesn't matter what term is used. Called it Alqua , water, Sui, air......they are the same thing if they are the same thing.







Have you heard the term Lap Lim 立念 ?------

This is a modern made term .



So if all the effort was put into the Yik Kam kuit you are presenting here, there will be these 'details' in further texts surely? And if they're not and details are left to the imagination or verbal instruction only then there would be no point in attempting to understand the kuit you have presented here Hendrik!---------


A kuit like this yik kam kuit is a description of the art .

Similar to if one read control system equation, the system equation tells what it is, if one knows differential equation or laplace transform or fourier transform.
They are well and precise describe if one has those math back ground.


Emei 12 zhuang and fujian white crane writing are analogy to the laplace transform math for yik kam slt kuen kuit. One needs those to read .



So, to those of us who know control system engineering, this slt kuit can be analogy as a system equation model which is model in differential equation. The emei 12 zhuang and white crane are the differential equation and inertial condition. The system characteristic is obvious if one knows the math and inertial condition. However, if one doesn't have the back ground, then it is trouble to blind guess.

Also, for those of us who knows programming, this kuit is a high level level language. Thus, it is a big effort to translate into machine code. Also, one needs to know the high level language to read the code. Is it a forth, an c, a fortran , a basic....ect.

Emei 12 zhuang is like a fortran and taiji is a COBOL. Ect....

The issue is most people doesn't have the language training and using thier imagination trying to read code.








of course, I also understand that every Sifu is different and will release what they want when the want, as my own Sifu does to this day..-----------


That is not true for ancient tcma writing as in emei 12 zhuang, it is precise and concise if one know it. Otherwise they cannot implement the kungfu. It is a technology transfer not a story writing.

As the yik kam kuit above, it is the soul of WCK which yik kam and cho family inner circle kept. So, it is go by book. Not up for imagination or selective presentation. The bottom line is it is an implementation process. It is a standard reference .

[Hendrik]

One can do a doctor degree with this kuit research in graduate school in the Department of PE , asia study, ...ect.

And I expect that because only with those type of study and reveal to the public.

WCK will be preserve and evolve healthy .
It is about every WCner. It is a new era based on technology.


If. One get this piece of kuit, snake and crane lineage 1870 wiring, koolo Gm Fung Chun art, one can have a first order view on how the system look. Because these cover the 1850 to early 1900.


I will keep my mouth shut after this post, just don't want to ruin a good movie for you.


Those who practice slt will know what the kuit refer to to an extend . The key is aware , don't think.

[fan]

Hendrik, good stuff you have being posting here recently. Any thoughts of publishing a book on Yik Kam Wing Chun and perhaps returning to Penang to find out what happened to the Cho Family? Is the Cho family art still extant in mainland China?

PS: In the clip of Sifu Cheong Wai Poe doing SLT, a youtube commentator remarked that his SLT looks like the Futsan version of SLT. Any thoughts on this?

[Hendrik]

Hendrik, good stuff you have being posting here recently. Any thoughts of publishing a book on Yik Kam Wing Chun and perhaps returning to Penang to find out what happened to the Cho Family? Is the Cho family art still extant in mainland China?

PS: In the clip of Sifu Cheong Wai Poe doing SLT, a youtube commentator remarked that his SLT looks like the Futsan version of SLT. Any thoughts on this?

1. No plan to publish a book . These stuffs are not belongs to me but all wcners.
My mission is to release them in time to the west. What I know is in the net for free. So everyone can have accessed.

Actually, what you see here, sifu Robert Chu and Rene have seen them and much more, more then 10 years ago. We know what it is. It is nothing new.

Sifu Jim Rosalendo is researching it and published articles.

2. Cho family is healthy in Asia and China in my understanding.


3. No comment on different lineages of Cho family art since I am not Yik Kam.


4. With these ancient kuit, hope that wcner realize. Slt is more then posture. And one needs to make it alive in the ancient standard. Slt means details, detials, details, the devil is within the details in the 5 layers.

[Vajramusti]

Are you talking of your own Wing Chun training here Joy, or referring to the cip I posted?

Yiou will find that the opening sequence in the clip is exactly what Hendriks' first 2 lines represent.

((I am not superimposing what I do. You are interpreting your clip on your own way.There is no taiji
stance or engine in Cho family wing chun as far as I can tell))joy



Of course I am aware of this, BUT my own Sigungs contact with the Cho Family and other lineages still strongly suggest a Shaolin/Traditional Southern flavour in the sets that Ip Man was aware of (and changed)

(It's fashionable to claim shaolin. You are not specific enough in your comment on Ip Man))joy

The question is, is it still relevant to Wing Chun today? Personally I think it is.

(What question??"" joy

[Hendrik]

Those who is serious to get into the ancient WCK , i suggest to first understand these brief intro.

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...0&postcount=17

[Mutant]

If. One get this piece of kuit, snake and crane lineage 1870 wiring, koolo Gm Fung Chun art, one can have a first order view on how the system look. Because these cover the 1850 to early 1900.

Fascinating material, Hendrik, thank you so much for sharing with the WC community.

In the above suggestion, where can one find more information on the "snake and crane lineage 1870 wiring"? Is that a specific juncture in development where Leung Jan developed or integrated something? Is that referring to Leung Jan's creation of the 3 forms with Wong Wah Bo?

聚意會神平肩檔。兩手前起分陰陽
Gather the yi (intention), join with the shen (spirit), even shoulder stance.
Raise the hands in front, split into yin and yang.

Also, in regards to the comparison to the Chen Taichi system, that form seems distinctly different than the description in the kuit you've posted. In the Taichi form, first thing there is a big step out initially with shoulders becoming tilted uneven level during this transition... and then once set the practitioner raises the arms afterwards, and while the hands are slightly different level/heights in this transition, theyre not what most would describe as yin and yang at that point.

左腿跘出有善惡。右跟屈勁緊反藏
Left leg steps out has good or evil. Right leg crouches power (ging) is tightly stored.

Is the above referring to the to the alternating toes/heels in and out to open into the stance, or is there an alternate opening transition? In Pin Sun there is a 'darting horse' stance transition that might fit that description, as well as the side-body turning shift. Interesting.

Thanks. Very interesting discussion.
Chris

[Hendrik]

In the above suggestion, where can one find more information on the "snake and crane lineage 1870 wiring"?

Is that a specific juncture in development where Leung Jan developed or integrated something?

Is that referring to Leung Jan's creation of the 3 forms with Wong Wah Bo?



1, my opps. it is 1890 writing note instead of 1870.

see the following Wayne's presentation on his snake and crane WCK lineage.

scrol down to page 5 to see the image of the 1890 preserved writing note.

http://www.slideshare.net/ccwayne/hi...-wing-chun-mun



2, IMHO, we are looking at hard evidence of from 1850 now.
so seems like lineage and name is no longer that important because
what we want to get into is the description of the art at that era.
it is like Hendrik is not important 100 years from today because people
can take a look at his youtube content.






Also, in regards to the comparison to the Chen Taichi system, that form seems distinctly
different than the description in the kuit you've posted. In the Taichi form, first thing there
is a big step out initially with shoulders becoming tilted uneven level during this transition...
and then once set the practitioner raises the arms afterwards, and while the hands are slightly
different level/heights in this transition, theyre not what most would describe as
yin and yang at that point.



Is the above referring to the to the alternating toes/heels in and out to open into the stance,
or is there an alternate opening transition? In Pin Sun there is a 'darting horse' stance transition
that might fit that description, as well as the side-body turning shift. Interesting.

every line is an instruction in details.

for fun of digging deep into it.

attached is a picture on the detail explaination and instruction of the
first line of the emei 12 zhuang (which is believe
to be the mother of the first line of the yik kam slt ko kuit above)
by the gate keeper of Emei 12 Zhuang in details in 1950.
when he released the knowledge to the public.

let this tell you the full story of what is all these EVEN shoulder stance and clamping Yang stuffs
without guessing as what it is mean 800 years ago.

BTW these emei 12 zhuang stuffs is in the lotus cannon keep in the Beijing Museum
as I last heard. So, the father of SLT is a track able SOME BODY in the history of China not
some oridinary stuffs. this is before chen taiji was born.

CFT, please help !

[Hendrik]

Just my opinion,

I am not trying to be sacastic or impolite
when I am asking what shao lin? what taiji?
who in red boat?

the fact is we have lots of data today to track down things.

we cannot continous to guess. we need atleast an accurate
first order answer. otherwise, our art is going to go no where and wasting our life practice those sets monkey around thinking everyone's intepretation is valid. Nope, that is not the case in fact. it is very specific otherwise it will work different.

take a look at the above Emei description, there are layers of design in the art
which is not us modern people aware of.

[Hendrik]

If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountain disappeared,
If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes
The world I know fades away
But you stay


If the years take away
Every memory that I have
I would still know the way
That would lead me back to your side
The north star may die
But the light that I see in your eyes
Will burn there always





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lkM5K...eature=related




There are lots of very artistic and creative dancer and martial artists WCners in the USA and Europe, I hope these artis take these information as the first step and further grow and evolve WCK.

[LoneTiger108]

(What question??"" joy

The question Joy is, will this sort of research that Hendrik is obviously so passionate about be of any use whatsoever to the many Wing Chun students and teachers who seem to not care about the history or culture of our martial ancestors??

Does anybody here understand the kuit from Yik Kam? Without thought

If. One get this piece of kuit, snake and crane lineage 1870 wiring, koolo Gm Fung Chun art, one can have a first order view on how the system look. Because these cover the 1850 to early 1900.

I completely agree with what you say here Hendrik, but how can we connect Yik Kams understanding (which has also been though the Cho Family mix) to what Ip Man passed to the West?

[LoneTiger108]

Just an observation...

You mention that the text you posted is in the 'Beijing Museum' but I see the use of modern simplified chinese characters (?)