Triangle Palms - YKS

[JPinAZ]

I don't think it's disrespectful, simply calling a spade a spade. FWIW, neither Wing Chun I've learned would consider those moves, especially that tan sao, to be well structured.

Exactly. No disrespect meant, just calling it as I see it. I don't care from where or who the picture is of, if the tan is low with a bent wrist & wrist contact, it's a 'bad tan sao' structure-wise in my book.
I see yoshi's boy stan doing this same sorta stuff, and we all see how wonderful his WC clips are...

[Yoshiyahu]

Eric very well. Please share a picture of a Tan sau with connection to person limb or wooden man. An how you believe it should be. Now with that being said. Your utilization of Taan Sau is fine. But there is more than one way to Tan or Tan Da someone...There is outside gate and inner gate! Every lineage is different

I don't think it's disrespectful, simply calling a spade a spade. FWIW, neither Wing Chun I've learned would consider those moves, especially that tan sao, to be well structured.

Lone Tiger somethings are my own which might be application. i apply techniques differently. But as for training well thats the same. I apply techs different because my structure, speed and abilities are different. But yet an still its all the same as the original stuff!

Funny. I didn't say you did dude! I was merely throwing YOUR OWN words back atchya, as it sounded like you were saying that if I wanted to show Stan 'my real Wing Chun' then contact him or something!??

I enjoyed reading your other replies, and it is ever more clear to me what it is you are doing with your Wing Chun.



This post gives me a better picture of your understanding I think.

I believe The System is KEY. It can not be manipulated. It is fixed. It is more than what Ip Man taught in HK, and it has connections to both the Red Boats and Shaolin Temple, Kulo, Fatshan and the rest of the World through individual promotions! The System is, was and forever will be 'written down'. It's a map, if you like, of everything the original founder/s wanted to pass on.

If you want a modern interpretation, it is like what Bruce Lee's Jun Fan Gung Fu is to JKD. An original template for everything to grow from.

The STYLE is completely individual. This is where the changes happen, and what you are doing is simply 'your own thing' by the sound of it, possibly no different to your Sifu and his. Am I right?

JPinazz Bent Wrist is Tan Sau. Straight Wrist is Man Sau!

As for the wonderment of his WC clips. Where they are ten time better than your clips arent they?

Exactly. No disrespect meant, just calling it as I see it. I don't care from where or who the picture is of, if the tan is low with a bent wrist & wrist contact, it's a 'bad tan sao' structure-wise in my book.
I see yoshi's boy stan doing this same sorta stuff, and we all see how wonderful his WC clips are...

[Horz]

Exactly. No disrespect meant, just calling it as I see it. I don't care from where or who the picture is of, if the tan is low with a bent wrist & wrist contact, it's a 'bad tan sao' structure-wise in my book.
I see yoshi's boy stan doing this same sorta stuff, and we all see how wonderful his WC clips are...

LOL - Sum Nung broke bones with that tan.
Very effective technique/structure used frequently across all wing chun from China.

[LoneTiger108]

Lone Tiger somethings are my own which might be application. i apply techniques differently. But as for training well thats the same. I apply techs different because my structure, speed and abilities are different. But yet an still its all the same as the original stuff!

And by 'original stuff' do you mean what your Sifu taught you? A curriculum of Wing Chun?

I only ask because I see many many people saying they have been taught a 'mainland' variety of Wing Chun but once they go under the spotlight it's a different story.

With regards to this 'tansau' positioning, have a look at my first old clip 'An Introduction' and tell me (honestly!) if you have ever seen a drill like this before, done in the manner I am doing it, with the explanation I give...

http://www.flystudio.co.uk/media/film/film.html

[JPinAZ]

LOL - Sum Nung broke bones with that tan.
Very effective technique/structure used frequently across all wing chun from China.

I'm sure people can make a bent wrist, wrist-contact tan sao work - people make lots of silly things 'work'. Looking at it from a structural pov, I'm not seeing it.

From my experience in HFY (and ignoring taan/bong/fook chi sau for a moment), taan sau typically gets its leverage from mid forearm contact with the energy going in a straight line from the elbow to the fingertips, up and fwd, and is used to 'spread' the incoming energy off centerline as you adjust your facing (taan sau staying on your own self-center). If you bend the wrist, then you change the direction of the 'energy'/intent and you loose leverage, it'sjust physics.

Even in Taan/Bong/Fook chi sau, if you use a bent wrist, you do not have proper fwd intent to neutralize fook sau and protect the gate.
But again, if people make it work, that's fine. Just from a leverage/energy/space occupation pov, a bent wrist taan sao has it's drawback. people will argue, but I'm entitled to my opinion

Out of curiousity, can you please tell me how someone 'broke bones' striking them with their bent wrist tan sau with contact at the wrist? IMO, hitting someone with a wrist that is bent will damage the wrist way before it damages a larger bone like a radius or an ulna for example.

[Eric_H]

LOL - Sum Nung broke bones with that tan.
Very effective technique/structure used frequently across all wing chun from China.

What a silly comment. *All* Wing Chun comes from China... yet most don't use a broken-wrist type of tahn.

Do you have any evidence of this or am I to assume that the bones frequently broken all across china were actually Sum Nung's due to unsupportable wrist structure?

[Eric_H]

JPinazz Bent Wrist is Tan Sau. Straight Wrist is Man Sau!

As for the wonderment of his WC clips. Where they are ten time better than your clips arent they?

That is not correct for Tahn vs Man.

Man sao can be a particular tool such as most Ip Man lineages have in their Chum Kiu form or can be a term to describe the leading hand.

Personally, I'd prefer no clips over bad ones. There is an old saying about keeping one's mouth closed and letting folks suspect you are an idiot rather than open it and let the world know for certain what kind of idiot you really are....

[JPinAZ]

That is not correct for Tahn vs Man.

Man sao can be a particular tool such as most Ip Man lineages have in their Chum Kiu form or can be a term to describe the leading hand.

Personally, I'd prefer no clips over bad ones. There is an old saying about keeping one's mouth closed and letting folks suspect you are an idiot rather than open it and let the world know for certain what kind of idiot you really are....

hahaha, it's pretty obvious Yoshi has ever heard that saying before...
I'm so happy ths clown is on my ignore list I don't have to read all of his daily garbage like "Bent Wrist is Tan Sau. Straight Wrist is Man Sau" I mean really?? WTF!
- Ignore is your friend, and don't feed the trolls

[wingchunIan]

it's not the worst wing chun clip I've ever seen but it's pretty bad. Forget the wrist structure, I look at the rest of the body structure or lack of it and the big circular movements, not my cup of tea.

[wtxs]

Well i been training WC since I was about 16 so that makes a little over 16 years. I trained privately with my Sifu for about five years. Then took a break from WC for about two years. But I still did sparring and chi sau with my sidai. Got back to training again publically with him when i was about 22 or 23. Somewhere around there. But also begin to doing Tai Chi, Baguazhang and Wing Chun. Basically it wasnt as formal concerning the WC just mere corrections. But i eventually started doing some training with his Sihing Mike Burnside. Also I started training with Stan around 27 or 29 years of age. Still See woody(My Sifu) from time to time. I am 35 now. Ne way let me digress. I do not only practice WC. But it is my based art. He started us off with some basic stuff in tiger and crane and the five elements. I didnt study that long enough to fight effiecently with it. But what i did learn i can apply with my Wing Chun.

I firmly believe I have authenic Wing Chun as you might insinuate from Real Wing Chun. I know the wing chun I learn is very good despite what some may believe from looking at Stans Videos. It is what it is. I will say our Wing Chun is very different from most of you. The principles alone is alien to what most of the people do on forums with the exceptions to a very few i have spoken with or read their post in various threads. That doesn't make others WC bad or good. Just different. I always say its not the system that matters but the indiviuals way of expressing it. The way I express, innovate and translate my Wing Chun is completely different than the way Stan Does his. I train differently than he does because I was taught differently, i am built differently and my persona and mindframe is different than his. So our WC will have similiaries but difference by way of expression. The same as your WC is different from your Sifu's and your WC brothers and sisters.

For someone claims to have over half of their life studying WC, you must have not been putting any time in doing your home work ... judging by all the nonsense you had posted ... and I won't even fault you teacher for teaching you all this crap.

[LoneTiger108]

From my experience in HFY (and ignoring taan/bong/fook chi sau for a moment), taan sau typically gets its leverage from mid forearm contact with the energy going in a straight line from the elbow to the fingertips, up and fwd, and is used to 'spread' the incoming energy off centerline as you adjust your facing (taan sau staying on your own self-center). If you bend the wrist, then you change the direction of the 'energy'/intent and you loose leverage, it'sjust physics.

I would be very careful how you approach this 'energy' alignment thing because what you are saying here is totally dependant on understanding exactly what you are doing with your Yi (intent) and Yee (will) both of which affect your Hei (Chi-energies)

In a basic SLT, within our first set/section, the tansau which has it's fingers in line with the elbow does not have any intent or energies 'within the hand itself'. In fact the main concentration fme is to hold your Hei at the elbow and keep the forearm upwards totally relaxed and 'open'. This is only a basic practice to loosen the wrist joint so as huensau doesn't become too rigid. Once intent is in the hand and fingers itself you are adjusting the main concept of the basic form and taking the set itself into another dynamic. This will require both an understanding of CK and BJ, which I rarely see these days.

It isn't an incorrect practise, it's simply a practise that has been influenced already by our other forms so as long as you remain aware of that things are cool

I will give what I think is a good example:

Many of Ip Mans later students never learnt Biu Jee. Fact.

So when you look at the way they develop and adjust their first form, it tends to have many Chum Kiu influences. Attempts to make each set a Sansau with practical uses etc by using the distancing and strategies from Chum Kiu.

One of the most popular Sifus I have seen to have this affect on their present generations is WSL. I see very little more advanced than Chum Kiu from this specific lineage, although he is spoken of with such high regard in the general community. I think this is because his SLT and CK knowledge was sound and better than many others. And that is a very good thing imho.

Woah! Just realized I've had a rant so apologies, and I suspect I will be attacked from all sides now from the WSL camp but I honestly mean no offence by this post, I am simply sharing my thoughts

[Treznor]

I would be very careful how you approach this 'energy' alignment thing because what you are saying here is totally dependant on understanding exactly what you are doing with your Yi (intent) and Yee (will) both of which affect your Hei (Chi-energies)

In a basic SLT, within our first set/section, the tansau which has it's fingers in line with the elbow does not have any intent or energies 'within the hand itself'. In fact the main concentration fme is to hold your Hei at the elbow and keep the forearm upwards totally relaxed and 'open'. This is only a basic practice to loosen the wrist joint so as huensau doesn't become too rigid. Once intent is in the hand and fingers itself you are adjusting the main concept of the basic form and taking the set itself into another dynamic. This will require both an understanding of CK and BJ, which I rarely see these days.

It isn't an incorrect practise, it's simply a practise that has been influenced already by our other forms so as long as you remain aware of that things are cool

I will give what I think is a good example:

Many of Ip Mans later students never learnt Biu Jee. Fact.

So when you look at the way they develop and adjust their first form, it tends to have many Chum Kiu influences. Attempts to make each set a Sansau with practical uses etc by using the distancing and strategies from Chum Kiu.

One of the most popular Sifus I have seen to have this affect on their present generations is WSL. I see very little more advanced than Chum Kiu from this specific lineage, although he is spoken of with such high regard in the general community. I think this is because his SLT and CK knowledge was sound and better than many others. And that is a very good thing imho.

Woah! Just realized I've had a rant so apologies, and I suspect I will be attacked from all sides now from the WSL camp but I honestly mean no offence by this post, I am simply sharing my thoughts

That's the most chilled out rant I've ever seen then

[JPinAZ]

I would be very careful how you approach this 'energy' alignment thing because what you are saying here is totally dependant on understanding exactly what you are doing with your Yi (intent) and Yee (will) both of which affect your Hei (Chi-energies)

I think you may be taking my using the word 'energy' a little too literally. Does just 'intent' work better?

Anyway, in application, if your 'intent' is not throughout the whole arm, elbow thru to finger tips, the structure will collapse much easier. This is very easy to test. Of course the taan sau should be supported by proper elbow and body alignment along with the 'intent'.
In the form, it is the same thing. During the first section, We teach students to pass a pretty strong structure test on the taan sau throughout it's motion (where we will randomly slap into the forearm of the taan sau rather hard when they are not expecting it). If your 'intent' is not there, along with correct positioning of the elbow and hand according to HFY's sup ming dim (10 bright points), it's very easy to fail this test.

In a basic SLT, within our first set/section, the tansau which has it's fingers in line with the elbow does not have any intent or energies 'within the hand itself'. In fact the main concentration fme is to hold your Hei at the elbow and keep the forearm upwards totally relaxed and 'open'. This is only a basic practice to loosen the wrist joint so as huensau doesn't become too rigid. Once intent is in the hand and fingers itself you are adjusting the main concept of the basic form and taking the set itself into another dynamic. This will require both an understanding of CK and BJ, which I rarely see these days.

Your talking more of a learning progression, while I'm more referring to the end goal, what taan sau's end focus should be - which I think we are somewhat in agreement on. We teach our students to use on/off energy, including between many of the motions in SNT, so the rigid wrist thing like between taan and heun shouldn't be an issue and they can focus on the whole arm 'intent' from day one. Of course, not everyone 'gets it' in the beginning

As for the CK/BJ understanding, everything I am referring to should all be in the SNT level learning. IMO, a practitioner should already have a decent structure and energy understanding from SNT training.

[LoneTiger108]

Anyway, in application, if your 'intent' is not throughout the whole arm, elbow thru to finger tips, the structure will collapse much easier. This is very easy to test. Of course the taan sau should be supported by proper elbow and body alignment along with the 'intent'.

I think here lies the issue, because you are 'applying' your SLT first set in a sansau format? Learning how to use it as a technique, rather than a method?

And FWIW in 'application' the intent throughout the whole arm will vary depending on the exact angles and oncoming forces received (which in reality can be as different as a trained MMA fighter!) and this is covered in CK (in the Ip Man curriculum) and not within the learning of SLT.

I understand that your root doesn't pass through Ip Man, and you may have a very similar approach to your SLT as I do, but this shouldn't really affect the mechanics of the system itself. Only the way in which we learn how to develop the mechanics maybe.

In the form, it is the same thing. During the first section, We teach students to pass a pretty strong structure test on the taan sau throughout it's motion (where we will randomly slap into the forearm of the taan sau rather hard when they are not expecting it). If your 'intent' is not there, along with correct positioning of the elbow and hand according to HFY's sup ming dim (10 bright points), it's very easy to fail this test.

Okay this highlights my point even further.

So let's ask specifics:

1. Can/have you put a clip up of this structure test?
2. Are students using muscular strength to 'hold their positions'?
3. Have you heigung practises linked to this first set?

Your talking more of a learning progression, while I'm more referring to the end goal, what taan sau's end focus should be - which I think we are somewhat in agreement on.

I think we are on a similar page with regards to our end goal.

As for the CK/BJ understanding, everything I am referring to should all be in the SNT level learning. IMO, a practitioner should already have a decent structure and energy understanding from SNT training.

But this is where we may have massive differences.

I think I understand where you are coming from; you spend more time on the SLT to literally 'train' it thoroughly without learning CK and BJ but what I'm suggesting here is that you are ALREADY using the knowledge from CK & BJ to do this (from what you have described)

You just may not know that because you have a disconnection somewhere? Most pre-Ip Man schools I have seen do not have either CK or BJ forms in their curriculum and I only presume you HFY guys are the same no?

[JPinAZ]

I think here lies the issue, because you are 'applying' your SLT first set in a sansau format? Learning how to use it as a technique, rather than a method?

No, you are making incorrect assumptions. I don't use taan sau 'as a technique'. It, like most principle-driven shapes in WC, is a reaction based on energy, position on the bridge and leverage needed to put myself in an advantageous position. The shape is just a result of what needs to be done - in this case with taan sau: spreading off the energy on the bridge.

And FWIW in 'application' the intent throughout the whole arm will vary depending on the exact angles and oncoming forces received (which in reality can be as different as a trained MMA fighter!) and this is covered in CK (in the Ip Man curriculum) and not within the learning of SLT.

Of course the energies will be dictated depending on what you're getting on the bridge, I never said otherwise. Now I think you might be arguing just to argue.

I understand that your root doesn't pass through Ip Man, and you may have a very similar approach to your SLT as I do, but this shouldn't really affect the mechanics of the system itself. Only the way in which we learn how to develop the mechanics maybe..

Actually, both Ip Man and HFY share the same original 'root' at some point, as does all WC, so there should be similarities. But you're right, we don't trace our lineage thru IP.

So let's ask specifics:

1. Can/have you put a clip up of this structure test?
2. Are students using muscular strength to 'hold their positions'?
3. Have you heigung practises linked to this first set?

Nope, no clip. but it's easy to do. just have them do SNT with thier eyes closed, walk around and give them a pretty good smack on their forearm when going thru taan sau. If they are using the correct intent and structure, their hand shouldn't smack their face.

Of course, there is some muscular strength in holding the position, there is no way to do anything with the body without some muscular support. Now, I've already explained how it works in my last post, but if you are trying to imply that they are surviving the challenge by 'muscling it', then you are just making silly assumptions to prove some point (?).
In WCK, you shouldn't have to muscle anything, that's what we have structure and fwd energy concept for.

I think we are on a similar page with regards to our end goal.

cool

But this is where we may have massive differences.

I think I understand where you are coming from; you spend more time on the SLT to literally 'train' it thoroughly without learning CK and BJ but what I'm suggesting here is that you are ALREADY using the knowledge from CK & BJ to do this (from what you have described)

You just may not know that because you have a disconnection somewhere? Most pre-Ip Man schools I have seen do not have either CK or BJ forms in their curriculum and I only presume you HFY guys are the same no?

I think most of the difficulties here start with the fact that you don't know much about HFY, which is fine. But instead of just asking questions, you are making assumptions and then commenting based on those incorrect assumptions.

HFY does in fact have SNT/CK/BJ as well as wooden dummy, the knives and 2 pole forms. And in a way you are correct on one of your guesses, we do not approach our training in the exact same way IP lines do with the linear SNT/CK/BJ fashion. Yes, there is some overlap of the concepts of the 3 hand forms during the training, but SNT is the meat of WCK's base concepts and ideas. You only really need CK/BJ if your SNT falls apart in a fight - this is the same as in IP line, yeah?
But that doesn't mean we ignore CK/BJ either - there are a lot of strategies and tactics held in those 2 forms, and some of them should be learned early on in one's training