Do you attack first or do you let them?

[GlennR]

You guys are missing the point on what I said about chi sao. I don't think you use "Chi Sao" to fight with for the last time. My point was "through" good chi sao one can develop the ability to read the movement and intention of someone even without touching, from anyone, not just other WC guys.

Like a boxer might for example

If you recognize it, it becomes clear that the person is initiating his attacking movement. Being able to read the difference between Passive and Active in an individual is paramount to WC and is what the system is heavily based on. I'm genuinely surprised at the lack of understanding of this very important part of WC on this forum and elsewhere.

Well it may be a key part to you. Having said that, being able to recognise someone about to belt you probably is a handy self defense attribute.

"They move first, but you move faster" Why? Because through Chi Sao, good chi sao, one develops his own awareness of Passive/Active. If you remain Passive when Active is being initiated, regardless of touch or not, you will be quicker with your timing because it's a half beat to his full beat. If you both are active at the same time or you actively "intercept" an attack, you're basing your timing off of 1-2 beat. The "2" beat will be anyone's ball game, so to speak. By intercepting 'actively within passive', if your attack is blocked or redirected, you'll have the ability to truly intercept on the "2" beat. So it goes something like this, you being in bold, - (1/2)1 - (1/2 2). In layman's terms, what does that mean? It means your body was active while your arms were passive during both half beats. These are the basics with closing the gap.

This, IMO, is a world of assumption

There is much, much more to Passive/Active when contact is made and I've tried to explain that before as well but not many listened back when I did.

Well whip up a clip then

There is no other exercise I know better than Chi Sao to develop these attributes with regards to fighting. All you need is to understand and develop this concept along with your structure and you can fight truly free. When Ip Man said 'the opponent will show you how to hit him' he was referring to this concept, I guarantee you that, and whether you agree with me or not, all of you, if you're being honest with yourselves, you have to admit that Fong Sifu and some of his students of which I've posted a few videos have some of the best timing around. And without being biased here, I think that ought to say somethin

g...

Fong does look sharp, but the other clips ive seen look like fairly standard bread and butter chi-sao, im not thinking they are going to help you case

[GlennR]

This is the exact reason I prefer to counter. While someone is attacking (w/ commitment) they can't be defending. Can't be in two places at the same time.

The other argument might be, first punch thrown is the first one with a chance to connect

[Lee Chiang Po]

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1164265]

I . If you have ever tried to use that with a person that comes in windmilling you know that it ends there.
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you mist not have done good Ip Man stlye wing chun chi sao - since you are using the term" windmilling". Regarding all your fights- no comment . Several prople on this list also apparently tell stories about their fights.
joy chaudhuri

I had never even heard of Ip Man until I got on this forum. I am refering to fighting, not playing with hand chasing. I have dealt with far more inexperienced fighters than experienced or professional. None of them had the first clue as to what Chi Sao is, and trying to play hands with them will get you knocked around some. The most difficult person to fight is a person that has absolutely no fighting system at all. You can never know what he is about to do, and he usually does it fast and furiously.
As for windmilling, in case you have not experienced it or know what it is, it is when a fellow just comes running in with both arms swinging like a spinning wind mill. It is done by people that do not chi sao. Lots of them do it, by the way.

[k gledhill]

I had never even heard of Ip Man until I got on this forum. I am refering to fighting, not playing with hand chasing. I have dealt with far more inexperienced fighters than experienced or professional. None of them had the first clue as to what Chi Sao is, and trying to play hands with them will get you knocked around some. The most difficult person to fight is a person that has absolutely no fighting system at all. You can never know what he is about to do, and he usually does it fast and furiously.
As for windmilling, in case you have not experienced it or know what it is, it is when a fellow just comes running in with both arms swinging like a spinning wind mill. It is done by people that do not chi sao. Lots of them do it, by the way.

Agree, Adrenalin dumps cause the arms to extend out, same with shooting under stress with weak ~ strong grips. One arm overpowers the other and you miss at 5 meters ...
While working a nightclub , I saw a fight in a foyer between two bouncers, many years ago...one guy was trying to wait to get a punch into the other guy who was just windmilling like a maniac and missing mostly. The windmill ratio worked and he finally clipped the other guy, who turned and walked out the front doors, never to came back. Looked Like Choy Lee Fut....

[Lee Chiang Po]

This is the exact reason I prefer to counter. While someone is attacking (w/ commitment) they can't be defending. Can't be in two places at the same time.

Exactly. And you don't have to wait for him to make his move first. You can draw him out. Most people do not just defend themselves in these cases, but actually counter attack, which then gives you an opening.

[Lee Chiang Po]

[QUOTE=k gledhill;1164381]

Agree, Adrenalin dumps cause the arms to extend out, same with shooting under stress with weak ~ strong grips. One arm overpowers the other and you miss at 5 meters ...
While working a nightclub , I saw a fight in a foyer between two bouncers, many years ago...one guy was trying to wait to get a punch into the other guy who was just windmilling like a maniac and missing mostly. The windmill ratio worked and he finally clipped the other guy, who turned and walked out the front doors, never to came back. Looked Like Choy Lee Fut....

In many cases the wind mill does work. One of the last places I worked was a dance club in Grand Prairie, Texas. I think the reason anyone patronized the place was to fight or watch the fights. They started at the door as soon as it opened and it was on till closing time. The place eventually got closed down because of it and I was not really upset over it. I stayed sore and bruised. Half the people there were bouncers. The contract read that I could not strike or kick a patron. I could not break a bone or cause injury. However, I was expected to defuse an all out fight involving half a dozen people, most larger and stronger then myself. Most fights I could side line by buying a round on the house. It was usually a buddy of the fighter that eventually tried to whip me. I will admit that I used jiujitsu regularly there. It was the only thing I really had to work with. I think that was the place that broke me from taking such jobs.

[k gledhill]

In many cases the wind mill does work. One of the last places I worked was a dance club in Grand Prairie, Texas. I think the reason anyone patronized the place was to fight or watch the fights. They started at the door as soon as it opened and it was on till closing time. The place eventually got closed down because of it and I was not really upset over it. I stayed sore and bruised. Half the people there were bouncers. The contract read that I could not strike or kick a patron. I could not break a bone or cause injury. However, I was expected to defuse an all out fight involving half a dozen people, most larger and stronger then myself. Most fights I could side line by buying a round on the house. It was usually a buddy of the fighter that eventually tried to whip me. I will admit that I used jiujitsu regularly there. It was the only thing I really had to work with. I think that was the place that broke me from taking such jobs.

If the 'punters' knew the contract rules you had to engage them by, then its no surprise they fought as much as you say. The worst they could expect is ? if not a punch or kick ??

[Vajramusti]

Originally Posted by Vajramusti View Post


I had never even heard of Ip Man until I got on this forum. I am refering to fighting, not playing with hand chasing. I have dealt with far more inexperienced fighters than experienced or professional. None of them had the first clue as to what Chi Sao is, and trying to play hands with them will get you knocked around some. The most difficult person to fight is a person that has absolutely no fighting system at all. You can never know what he is about to do, and he usually does it fast and furiously.
As for windmilling, in case you have not experienced it or know what it is, it is when a fellow just comes running in with both arms swinging like a spinning wind mill. It is done by people that do not chi sao. Lots of them do it, by the way.
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Please quote correctly. That is Lee's post- not mine.

joy chaudhuri

[imperialtaichi]

This is the exact reason I prefer to counter. While someone is attacking (w/ commitment) they can't be defending. Can't be in two places at the same time.

Yes, the keyword here is "w/ commitment".

My first move is usually not for the purpose of knocking out the opponent, but to "shut down" his defense and "seal up" his weapons.

And if the opponent uses similar strategy, the situation can get challenging.

[WC1277]

I had never even heard of Ip Man until I got on this forum. I am refering to fighting, not playing with hand chasing. I have dealt with far more inexperienced fighters than experienced or professional. None of them had the first clue as to what Chi Sao is, and trying to play hands with them will get you knocked around some. The most difficult person to fight is a person that has absolutely no fighting system at all. You can never know what he is about to do, and he usually does it fast and furiously.
As for windmilling, in case you have not experienced it or know what it is, it is when a fellow just comes running in with both arms swinging like a spinning wind mill. It is done by people that do not chi sao. Lots of them do it, by the way.

I don't know what to say to you other than you obviously don't understand what chi sao is and what it's for.

The biggest thing that makes me laugh from all the "fighters" here is that you're severely confused if you think WC is anything more than timing and structure with a few principles about distance. If you're fighting, sparring, or doing anything remotely close that involves WC technique then you missed the point in the first place. The technique is not application. If you're fighting with technique than you'll never be successful. It's not like other martial arts. It sounds backwards but it's true. If you apply a tan sau in application, you'll get hit. If you apply any technique the way you learned it, you're going to get hit. I don't know why this isn't obvious. Fantasy Fu, true fantasy fu, is thinking you need to fight or spar with WC technique to get truly good at it. Real WC gung fu is you need to perfect your timing, angles, structure, footwork, passive/active for developmental purposes and then throw it all away when you fight. Whether Bruce Lee got the quote from his WC experience or not, it is completely true that "the highest art, is no art, the highest form, is no form". Perfecting WC structure isn't being a slave to it. Fighting with the tools you used to perfect that structure is. You might as well use your knife sharpener next time you're in a knife fight. It would be no different.

.....and no, Alan Orr's demos had very little WC structure in them. If you couldn't see that, than I'm sorry. You can skip a rock on water but you can't skip 3 rocks tied together. The guys who know will understand that last sentence....

[nasmedicine]

Yes, the keyword here is "w/ commitment".

My first move is usually not for the purpose of knocking out the opponent, but to "shut down" his defense and "seal up" his weapons.

And if the opponent uses similar strategy, the situation can get challenging.

Yes of course, If in the event I do make the "first" move, it definitely would not be one that was committed (relatively speaking). This is in hopes to evoke some type of desirable action from the opponent. If an opening does present itself at the very last moment, theoretically I should be able to make contact and issue power. Of course in reality anything can happen, however when I train I am trying to increase this theoretical chance via timing, relaxation, etc. IMHO, this is the ultimately goal not only for wing chun but for or any striking art across the board.

[GlennR]

I don't know what to say to you other than you obviously don't understand what chi sao is and what it's for.

I wont speak for him but he does know that just doing chi-sao wont make you a competent fighter

The biggest thing that makes me laugh from all the "fighters" here is that you're severely confused if you think WC is anything more than timing and structure with a few principles about distance. If you're fighting, sparring, or doing anything remotely close that involves WC technique then you missed the point in the first place. The technique is not application. If you're fighting with technique than you'll never be successful. It's not like other martial arts. It sounds backwards but it's true. If you apply a tan sau in application, you'll get hit. If you apply any technique the way you learned it, you're going to get hit. I don't know why this isn't obvious. Fantasy Fu, true fantasy fu, is thinking you need to fight or spar with WC technique to get truly good at it. Real WC gung fu is you need to perfect your timing, angles, structure, footwork, passive/active for developmental purposes and then throw it all away when you fight. Whether Bruce Lee got the quote from his WC experience or not, it is completely true that "the highest art, is no art, the highest form, is no form". Perfecting WC structure isn't being a slave to it. Fighting with the tools you used to perfect that structure is. You might as well use your knife sharpener next time you're in a knife fight. It would be no different.

Cliches, assumptions and so on. Youve never sparred hard have you?

.....and no, Alan Orr's demos had very little WC structure in them. If you couldn't see that, than I'm sorry. You can skip a rock on water but you can't skip 3 rocks tied together. The guys who know will understand that last sentence...

No, the guys that spar/fight with WC DO recognise the structure he applies and how it differs from boxing/MT.... mate you need to get out a bit and see how all your theories hold up in the real world

[imperialtaichi]

.... you're severely confused if you think WC is anything more than timing and structure with a few principles about distance....

I can assure you there is a lot more to it than just that!

[m1k3]

As a practitioner of Llap Goch I always attack first. The primary description of the art and it's principles is:

It is an ANCIENT Welsh ART based on a BRILLIANTLY simple I-D-E-A, which is a SECRET. The best form of DEFENCE is ATTACK (Clausewitz) and the most VITAL element of ATTACK is SURPRISE (Oscar HAMMERstein). Therefore, the BEST way to protect yourself AGAINST any ASSAILANT is to ATTACK him before he attacks YOU... Or BETTER... BEFORE the THOUGHT of doing so has EVEN OCCURRED TO HIM!!! SO YOU MAY BE ABLE TO RENDER YOUR ASSAILANT UNCONSCIOUS BEFORE he is EVEN aware of your very existence!

From http://www.llapgoch.org.uk/

This is a truly simple and dangerous art that blends well with any other including Wing Chun. It is so effective that it is often used by PROFESSIONAL WRESTLERS!

Weapon use is encouraged and any weapon is acceptable. When attacking first from behind I am a big fan of the baseball or cricket bat.

Its based in the UK so maybe some of you folk over the pond could check it out first hand.

[nasmedicine]

I can assure you there is a lot more to it than just that!

One word, "Yi".