Do you attack first or do you let them?

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1164155]No, it doesn't help develop ALL the key attributes of WCK. One of the biggest key WCK 'attributes' Taan/Bong/Fook rolling chi sau doesn't focus on is how to engage (meaning non-contact-to-contact). Almost every fight I've been in started with a punch, and in some cases a push. But none of them ever started squared up with both hands connected like typically chi sau game..

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Our chi sao is likely to be different on that score. Chi sao can speak to engagement and disengagement.

joy chaudhuri

[Lee Chiang Po]

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Whatever floats your boat.Chi sao is not fighting but it helps develop all the key attributes of wing chun,, helps with sensing things coming your way irrespective of the other person's style.
Of course experience with different kinds of opponents help.

joy chaudhuri

I trained with chi sao for the first few years, but eventually, I got to where if I managed to make good contact with someone I could keep them off balance and trying to recover because I could feel what he was trying to do, but chi sao like most do today is merely a game at best and I never got caught up in it. If you have ever tried to use that with a person that comes in windmilling you know that it ends there. Straight up, I have probably been involved in upward of 200 altercations. Some real serious events, others not so much. In no case did I ever run up on a person that was WC trained, or even knew what it was. Half A$$ed karate, judo, boxing, wrestling, and just plain old windmilling. I have met people that had absolutely no training in any martial art except that they had practiced kicking and punching in their own back yard gym. For the most part, any grown man can hurt you seriously.
If you can manage to fend off an attacker and never even get a lick in on him, you have successfully defended yourself. This is paramount. It is your first order. The whole idea here in my opinion is to render him harmless, even for a second, while you strike or kick him. And the only way to do this is to make him use his weapons so that they are temperarily unavailable for defense.

[k gledhill]

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wunnerful wunnerful-you know how to think-like a frog...

Actually the story is about an ignorant frog living blissfully unaware of any other ideas than his own...in a deep well of isolation.

back to you...

[Jansingsang]

"Receive what comes" (Wong Shun Leung)
VT the way of the intercepting fist...

[Vajramusti]

[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;1164247]I . If you have ever tried to use that with a person that comes in windmilling you know that it ends there.
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you mist not have done good Ip Man stlye wing chun chi sao - since you are using the term" windmilling". Regarding all your fights- no comment . Several prople on this list also apparently tell stories about their fights.
joy chaudhuri

[Sihing73]

I seem to recall Yip Man being quoted as saying something like:
"Your enemy tells you how to defeat them"
This would leave me to believe the counter is the WC/VT way as your response would be dependent on what the opponent gives to you.
Then again, if the opportunity presents itself to attack first and end the confrontation then that would be the correct method for that time, imho.

Given the legal implications I almost always prefer to be in a situation wherein I had to counter as this makes any claim of self defense more believeable.

[jesper]

seriously, apart from the noobs that try to bluff you first or play tough to impress girls or whatever. most fight I have seen or been involved with happens in a split second where someone just punch or kick the other guy without first puffing themselves up.

If you sense a guy wants to fight, hit him or leave. No good fighter is getting into a fighting stance and waiting for you to be ready.

[WC1277]

You guys are missing the point on what I said about chi sao. I don't think you use "Chi Sao" to fight with for the last time. My point was "through" good chi sao one can develop the ability to read the movement and intention of someone even without touching, from anyone, not just other WC guys. If you recognize it, it becomes clear that the person is initiating his attacking movement. Being able to read the difference between Passive and Active in an individual is paramount to WC and is what the system is heavily based on. I'm genuinely surprised at the lack of understanding of this very important part of WC on this forum and elsewhere. "They move first, but you move faster" Why? Because through Chi Sao, good chi sao, one develops his own awareness of Passive/Active. If you remain Passive when Active is being initiated, regardless of touch or not, you will be quicker with your timing because it's a half beat to his full beat. If you both are active at the same time or you actively "intercept" an attack, you're basing your timing off of 1-2 beat. The "2" beat will be anyone's ball game, so to speak. By intercepting 'actively within passive', if your attack is blocked or redirected, you'll have the ability to truly intercept on the "2" beat. So it goes something like this, you being in bold, - (1/2)1 - (1/2 2). In layman's terms, what does that mean? It means your body was active while your arms were passive during both half beats. These are the basics with closing the gap. There is much, much more to Passive/Active when contact is made and I've tried to explain that before as well but not many listened back when I did. There is no other exercise I know better than Chi Sao to develop these attributes with regards to fighting. All you need is to understand and develop this concept along with your structure and you can fight truly free. When Ip Man said 'the opponent will show you how to hit him' he was referring to this concept, I guarantee you that, and whether you agree with me or not, all of you, if you're being honest with yourselves, you have to admit that Fong Sifu and some of his students of which I've posted a few videos have some of the best timing around. And without being biased here, I think that ought to say something....

[YouKnowWho]

"Your enemy tells you how to defeat them" ... This would leave me to believe the counter is the WC/VT way...

The general TCMA principle, "If my opponent doesn't move, I won't move. If he moves, I'll move faster than he does." is quite misleading. The true meaning behind it is not that you always have to wait for your opponent to attack you first. It's to read your opponent's body language and detect which part of his body is going to open for you. You then start your attack. The moment that your opponent's body is fully open, the moment that your attack just arrive.

A simple example is when you detect that your opponent is going to raise his arms to guard his head (his arm is still below his belly), your leg start to kick out. When his arm just barely pass his belly, your kick has just arrive under his arm and hit on his belly.

If you see an opening, when you attack, that opening won't be there any more. If you "predict" an opening, when you attack, that open will be there when you arrive. So "Your enemy tells you how to defeat them" still mean that you attack first.

[imperialtaichi]

“敵不動，我不動；敵未動，我先動。”

"If the enemy does not move, I don't move; Before the enemy moves, I move first."

The classic quote seems contradictory; hence some people interpret the second part as "enemy moves a little (微), I move first", which has the same pronunciation as the original.

HOWEVER, I interpret as reading the opponent's intention; If I move first, the opponent can counter, if I wait for the opponent to move first, I could be too slow. However, if I attack AS the opponent intends to move, he is at his weakest because I am one step ahead, yet his mind is already committed. Hence, "If the enemy does not move, I don't move; Before the enemy moves, I move first."

Fight the opponent's intentions, before you fight with his body.

[imperialtaichi]

“敵不動，我不動；敵未動，我先動。”

"If the enemy does not move, I don't move; Before the enemy moves, I move first."

Fight the opponent's intentions, before you fight with his body.

As I am getting older, I am getting physically slower that some of the younger fighters; but if I can read them one step ahead, I am still faster even tho I am slower.

[Vajramusti]

“敵不動，我不動；敵未動，我先動。”

"If the enemy does not move, I don't move; Before the enemy moves, I move first."

The classic quote seems contradictory; hence some people interpret the second part as "enemy moves a little (微), I move first", which has the same pronunciation as the original.

HOWEVER, I interpret as reading the opponent's intention; If I move first, the opponent can counter, if I wait for the opponent to move first, I could be too slow. However, if I attack AS the opponent intends to move, he is at his weakest because I am one step ahead, yet his mind is already committed. Hence, "If the enemy does not move, I don't move; Before the enemy moves, I move first."

Fight the opponent's intentions, before you fight with his body.

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Good point- a form of radar! Many ways to develop that sense.
I know I know- the peanut and popcorn crowd wont be happy.

joy

[LivingArt]

really it depends on the situation im in, and the other person. if theyre aggressive, or seem confident I'll let them attack first and usually counter with a front kick. If theyre playing it defensive ill rush in with a knee/elbow combo. I like using my defensive weapons for offensive purposes. A good hip check, slap, or forearm strike doesn't look like fighting, and its always helpful legally if you dont look like you're fighting.

[YouKnowWho]

You don't have to wait for your opponent to make the 1st move (conservative approach). You can "force" him to make the 1st move (aggressive approach). The end result will be the same. The difference is whether your opponent has the control or you have the control.

[nasmedicine]

The whole idea here in my opinion is to render him harmless, even for a second, while you strike or kick him. And the only way to do this is to make him use his weapons so that they are temperarily unavailable for defense.

This is the exact reason I prefer to counter. While someone is attacking (w/ commitment) they can't be defending. Can't be in two places at the same time.