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Thread: Do you attack first or do you let them?

  1. #46
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    It's not a good idea to let your opponent to attack first. Here is an example. If your opponent jumps in the air, comes down 45 degree, and uses his "flying side kick" to attact your front knee joint, it will put you in a bad situation.

    - 1st, his kick that carry his body weight is very hard to stop after his momentum is generated.
    - 2nd, your knee joint is not very strong and cannot afford a kick like that. This will put you in defense mode (consider your own safety). That will give your oppponent "a good starting point", the fight may go all the way down hill from there.

    Unless you have trained how to counter a "flying side kick", if you don't, it will put you in disadvantage mode that your opponent is more familiar with the situation than you do (he can predict your reaction but you can't). We just don't have time to train all counters against all possible attacks (counter a "flying knee" will be another example).

    The question is, "Why do you want to allow that to happen?" It's much easier to prevent a problem from happening than to let it happen and fix it afterward.

    Do you prefer to attack your opponent like this? Or do you prefer your opponent to attack you like this?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1dh_...layer_embedded
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-26-2012 at 11:31 AM.

  2. #47
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    Absolutely no question about it. Attack first! If you feel something is about to happen, don't wait and give him a chance to do it. The heart and soul of Wing Chun is stepping in and punching and/or kicking. All the other stuff like Pak Da, Tan Da, Bong Sao, etc. is done if there's something in the way. If you've got a clear shot, take it and flatten him. Make sure you commit and don't stop till you're sure he's finished. If he throws somthing up in the way of your strike or if he tries to counterattack, that's where your chi sao skills come into play. But make no mistake about it. Wing Chun IS stepping in and attacking. Standing there and waiting for your opponent to make the first move is just stupid regardless of style.

  3. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    ... your opponent is more familiar with the situation than you do (he can predict your reaction but you can't)... It's much easier to prevent a problem from happening than to let it happen and fix it afterward.
    Excellent point.

    Make your opponent deal with you, instead of you dealing with your opponent.
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by hulkout View Post
    Absolutely no question about it. Attack first! If you feel something is about to happen, don't wait and give him a chance to do it. The heart and soul of Wing Chun is stepping in and punching and/or kicking. All the other stuff like Pak Da, Tan Da, Bong Sao, etc. is done if there's something in the way. If you've got a clear shot, take it and flatten him. Make sure you commit and don't stop till you're sure he's finished. If he throws somthing up in the way of your strike or if he tries to counterattack, that's where your chi sao skills come into play. But make no mistake about it. Wing Chun IS stepping in and attacking. Standing there and waiting for your opponent to make the first move is just stupid regardless of style.
    All of this has already been stated earlier. However, if you simply start swinging you might not get a solid lick in or he just might move and take a glancing blow. Then he just might come back with a deluge of punches. Your best bet is simply to let him attack you and subdue his weapons. You don't have to just stand there if you think he might be going to make a move, but you can act like you are going to attack without really committing. When he defends against what he things is an attack, you respond as he applies his defense and if you then want to play chi sao ok, but I think I would go ahead while I had him under control, even if it is for a fraction of a second, punch him in the head or kick him. What is stupid to me is attacking someone that is perfectly able to hit me back.
    Jackie Lee

  5. #50
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    Hello,

    While going through the PA State Police Academy we were trained in boxking. One of my favorite things was to throw a punch which my opponenet would block. I would then rotate the punch into a back fist and almost always be able to hit them and then continue to strike.

    Worked pretty good for me. Of course, I am sure most of the other cadets were scrubs by some standars.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  6. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Lee Chiang Po View Post
    All of this has already been stated earlier. However, if you simply start swinging you might not get a solid lick in or he just might move and take a glancing blow. Then he just might come back with a deluge of punches. Your best bet is simply to let him attack you and subdue his weapons. You don't have to just stand there if you think he might be going to make a move, but you can act like you are going to attack without really committing. When he defends against what he things is an attack, you respond as he applies his defense and if you then want to play chi sao ok, but I think I would go ahead while I had him under control, even if it is for a fraction of a second, punch him in the head or kick him. What is stupid to me is attacking someone that is perfectly able to hit me back.
    ofcourse if he attacks first theres also a pretty big chance you wont be able to prevent the strike.
    Again most of the fights I have witnessed or joined ends with the guy doing the preemtive striking as winner. Usually in a very short amount of time also.

  7. #52
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    Yoshiyahu Kung Fu

    In Yoshiyahu's Kung Fu...the intent is always to attack first!

    You want to attack first for three reason, Bridge the gap, Control the centerline and stick to your opponent.

    Bridging the gap means simply getting into chi sau range where we can utilize the basic tools from san shou, chi sau and the forms. We don't want to wait for opponent to strike first. He who strikes first gains control first. By attacking i dont mean you go in blindly with chain punches flying. When we attack it is to do two things simultaneously. One is to control the other is to hit. I want to hit you first with out you being able to hit me back. I want to distrupt your structure in the process. If my opponent has a long gaurd i will use lop da or jut da to intercept. If his guard is short or close to his body and face i will utilize gum da, pak da or lan da or gan da to intercept and nullify any counter attack. By attacking first I start to fight when i want it too. Instead of sitting waiting for him to swing i already know he will try an punch me back. Thats where my san shou drills come in at. As he attacks i defend and attack at the same time. Using the tools and principles I drill over and over again.

    Control the center line is principle that to me means many different things. It means to attack his center, disrupt his structure, flank him, up root his balance. All these things are forms of control. in addition to that if his guards are short i attempt to jam them or push them in on him so he can not retract them. If they are extended I attempt to yank or jerk his guards to shock his system an hit him while he is distracted. I can also use skills from chi sau to feel his next movement and nullfiy any lucky shots he may attempt to through. Attack first to gain control of the situtation. If im always waiting on him I am going at his pace or speed or momentum and i find my self waiting on my chance to attack back. Instead of waiting on his defenses to open up or wait for him to slow down. i attack first to open his doors and distract his attention an put him on the defensive. If i attack constantly eventually if he stays on the defensive to long he will get hit.


    Stick to your Opponent simply means be relentless, be aggressive, keep the pressure on him. I want to be constanly driving my whole body behind my punch. I want to constantly jam his space. It doesn't mean stick just to his arms. Thats where sensitivity comes in at. If you chase his arms you could be led. Lead to create openings. I want to keep my center line closed while opening his. I stick to him like bee or wasp attacking person. It constantly stays up on you an won't move. Stick to him like a pyhton. The goal of sticking is to constantly attack and hit him until he is no more. I don't just stick to feel him. I stick to hit him. As i defend im always hitting. As i advance im always attacking. As i retreat I also attacking. If your opponent is better or has stronger foundation to me an i cant keep driving up the middle. Then i go to the outside. If he is better at defending the centerline an occupying that space. I attack from an angle. I use counter steps and side steps to flank him while i attack. If you aint attacking you aint sticking.

    Mantra: Attack relentlessly, Control your opponent, Stick closely and Flow like water
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  8. #53
    Because attacking first is ALWAYS the best idea. For example:

    1. That little ole lady mean mugging me while crossing the street, you never know what she might be packing. Take her down before she can get her gun out of her purse
    2. The 3rd graders dressed up in their karate uniforms in the grocery store. Little ninjas should learn to look out for blind side rabbit punches. They'll learn to respect wing chun.
    3. Anyone in a club wearing Tapout. They deserve to be attacked first.
    4. Significant others. Nothing is sexier than adding a little Inspector Closeau Pink Panther action to your home life.


    In fact, anyone suggesting not attacking first obviously doesn't do the REAL wing chun.

  9. #54
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    Hello,

    I wonder has anyone read the Art of War or Book of Five Rings?

    Do those texts advocate attacking first or countering?

    Or is it dependent on other factors?

    To think in absolutes is in itself limiting.
    Peace,

    Dave

    http://www.sifuchowwingchun.com
    Wherever my opponent stands--they are in my space

  10. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hello,

    I wonder has anyone read the Art of War or Book of Five Rings?

    Do those texts advocate attacking first or countering?

    Or is it dependent on other factors?

    To think in absolutes is in itself limiting.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Deceptive simplicity in Sun Tzu-I think: You start first- I arrive earlier.
    "Countering" is a complex word!

    joy chaudhuri

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    To think in absolutes is in itself limiting.
    Yes, in the chaos of a real confrontation, any sh!t can happen.
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  12. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by imperialtaichi View Post
    Yes, in the chaos of a real confrontation, any sh!t can happen.
    This is absolutely true. And this is why you should always make your best efforts to control the situation. You can make the first move without actually trying to get in the first punch. If you can always be assured that you can take the guy out with that first move, but you can't.
    Example. You feel he is just before tossing a punch or whatever. You act as you are about to back hand him as a surprise attack, he will usually throw up his arm to block that blow. As his arm meets yours, you can then jerk him forward and off his balance and pop him right in the face. That will stun him for a tiny bit and you can then wade into him with both fists hammering. Or you can act like you are going for his face and when he takes a defensive move, you give him a wicked kick, which usually stuns him enough that his attention is down low while you are working on him up high.
    If any of this fails, you simply move away from him and try to make entry another way. Just running in and trading punches can go either way.
    Jackie Lee

  13. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by Sihing73 View Post
    Hello,

    I wonder has anyone read the Art of War or Book of Five Rings?

    Do those texts advocate attacking first or countering?

    Or is it dependent on other factors?

    To think in absolutes is in itself limiting.
    I've read both. From what I remember, the Art of War is a discourse on military strategy relating to an army on foot and possibly horseback. The Go Rin No Sho (5 rings) is 5 chapters (earth, water, fire, wind, void) and was very metaphysical from my recollection.

    There may be quotes pertaining to attack/counterattack in each I don't remember, but in general the scope of both works doesn't really pertain to unarmed hand to hand combat - one is army movement and strategy and the other is swordfighting and the zen behind it. Any learning that pertains to unarmed combat would be extrapolation and conjecture.

    I would (when not being sarcastic) think that it is dependant on other factors. And I would agree with you that thinking in absolutes is limiting.

  14. #59
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    I'm sure this had been mentioned before. If you can

    - knock down a grappler before he has chance to take you down, or
    - take down a striker before he has chance to knock you down,

    you will avoid a lot of unnecessary problems.

  15. #60
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    Actually I have found it very advantageous to not put myself in positions where I need to attack or defend.

    As Issac Asimov says “Violence,” came the retort, “is the last refuge of the incompetent.”

    Mike

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