Sin The' admits in court he made it all up.

[David Jamieson]

[goju]

http://www.bullshido.net/forums/showthread.php?t=115628

See what happens when I go on vacation?

[Eric Olson]

STFU, Hippy. Adults are talking.

Less of a hippy than a nihilistic navel gazer

EO

[David Jamieson]

Less of a hippy than a nihilistic navel gazer

EO

Me? You think I'm a nihilist? How the heck would you gather that?
From the statement "nothing is real"? Because that was contextual to the discussion. Also, it's true in context to this thread.

If I was a nihilist. I wouldn't be here in this discussion at all!

[SPJ]

We walk one step at a time.

We learn how to fight one move or one technique at a time.

Why so hung up on forms or kata?

In 7 star mantis, there will be so many kata. But only a few are well known and practiced by all.

I was so bummed by so many kata from old style of chen tai ji. There are so many kata or same kata practiced with different focuses/frames.

I ended up just learn one well.

I break kata up and practice one posture at a time.

I may string a few together and practice.

but each to his or her own.

All my short forms or any forms "new"? probably not.

We may make up a form anytime by placing a few moves together.

Why the fuss?

[Judge Pen]

Why the fuss?

Because it isn't what it was represented to be. It is a lie.

The material is solid fundamental material. It teaches the basic of punching, kicking, locking, throwing, stances, weight trasnfer, power generation, evasion, countering, blocking etc. It is very good foundation material for learning martial arts.

But it was passed off as traditional and it is not. That's a big deal.

I will teach my children this material, but I will tell them the truth about its origins.

[taai gihk yahn]

Because it isn't what it was represented to be. It is a lie.

The material is solid fundamental material. It teaches the basic of punching, kicking, locking, throwing, stances, weight trasnfer, power generation, evasion, countering, blocking etc. It is very good foundation material for learning martial arts.

But it was passed off as traditional and it is not. That's a big deal.

um...


seriously?

I mean, really? you actually are surprised to learn that it's not an "authentic" Shaolin-based art? I mean, it looks nothing like it, the entire story behind it is so obviously BS, and people on here w legitimate Shaolin-art lineage have been debunking it for years;

and you are surprised he fabricated it?




wow...

[David Jamieson]

It is difficult when you finally understand you have probably wasted a lot of time and have foolishly invested in something that you thought was something else.

In all likelihood, you will seek a way to justify the loss and maybe even twist it into a gain.

But that's ok, you just have to realize that all is mind and authentic only means "old and almost forgotten" most of the time.

Shaolin is big. What's at the temple now is not what was there originally or even 80 years ago.
But then, western boxing isn't like it was 80 years ago either.

[wenshu]

The material is solid fundamental material. It teaches the basic of punching, kicking, locking, throwing, stances, weight trasnfer, power generation, evasion, countering, blocking etc. It is very good foundation material for learning martial arts.

That's a reasonable hypothesis. How could anyone here in the US ever prove whether or not he invented those forms?

I don't think Sin The' made up everything on the tape he submitted for copyright. I think that tape represents most, if not everything he learned in Indonesia.

Sin The' has tremendous basic martial skills, he can hit and kick at a very high level. He has the type of skill you develop from years of practice on fundamentals, not years of practice trying to memorize one form after another.

And does this transcript really mean it is all a fake? Bruce Lee made up JKD from something. Would it not be honest for him to say it "came from" what he learned before inventing JKD?

And lets face it: someone made up everything at one point or another. And I know, the first person who ever taught Tai Chi, or Pa Kua, or Hsing Ie, or a tiger or crane or whatever, wouldn't recognize it today. I am not convinced that modifying material, or even making up forms, although it had to come from what he learned, is that bad or that different. He didn't invent a bow stance, or a head block, or a side kick, or a tiger claw, or a pressure point.

And so we question GMT for telling us his material is from, or is, Shaolin. If he was taught by Chinese elders (no one has really ever said that wasn't true), who said they were taught from Shaolin material, did he not learn Shaolin kung fu? Did he not learn from the world of Shaolin? Does anyone think they taught him, the same way and methods and exact forms, they were taught?

And therefore, did not he teach, even what he made up, from Shaolin? If he showed us how to punch, is that not a Shaolin punch, if that is how he was taught to punch? What else could it be, if that is where he got it? Even if he also added temple blocks, sweeps, or other techniques to it? Is it less Shaolin kung fu, if it is rearranged to suit Western patience, Western tastes, Western understanding? they were shown?

And therefore I am not prepared to say that because he learned Shaolin methods and techiques and material and forms, from Shaolin based teachers and from Shaolin based methods and techiques and forms, and taught me what he said -- what I've always thought, and I don't think his deposition says otherwise -- was Shaolin based methods and techiques and forms, and that because they were not all the same forms he was taught or that were taught at the Temple, that what I have learned is worthless and I have been deceived. Or, that he knowingly or intentionally deceived.

I sense much cognitive dissonance in you Padawan.

To be a Jedi, ready you are not.

[brothernumber9]

I don't know what authentic shaolin is supposed to look like. Especially from the Fukien temple, assuming it existed. Shaolin Do IMO, did show "flags" of what may be hodge podge passed off as traditional material from a single or focused source. Perhaps there was something at the core that Sin The' learned in Indonesia that was Shaolin originated, even if it was only a few sets or drills.
CMA is global now, there is quite a bit of diversity even within same "styles". Science and access to information has led to correction of alot of folk tales, errant, and mis-information that has been propagated for hundreds of years now about some histories of different styles, or systems, or lineages, but there is still alot that cannot be verified or disproved yet.
So, what does finally hearing from the horse's mouth that Shaolin Do was, in part, or all, fabricated bring to the CMA community? What does it bring to the KFM Forum community? I don't know, but I assume it effects the vast majority the same, and thiat ultimately is, really not at all.

[Old Noob]

It is difficult when you finally understand you have probably wasted a lot of time and have foolishly invested in something that you thought was something else.

In all likelihood, you will seek a way to justify the loss and maybe even twist it into a gain.

But that's ok, you just have to realize that all is mind and authentic only means "old and almost forgotten" most of the time.

Shaolin is big. What's at the temple now is not what was there originally or even 80 years ago.
But then, western boxing isn't like it was 80 years ago either.

I guess I don't get how finding out that the source of something is a lie necessarily equals time spent training the stuff was a waste. I can see how that might be true depending on the goal when the training was undertaken but I don't think it flows by logical necessity.

I think I've even seen you say that it doesn't really matter where stuff comes from; it can still be effective and Shaolin-derived. I'm paraphrasing so forgive my inaccuracies.

I do think the folks on here that are trying to interpret what's happened as not deceiving are either being apologists or are refusing to see the facts.

Fact: there are some things on the man's own website that are not true if you believe what he said in his deposition and are not otherwise reconcilable. Either he is lying on his site or he lied under oath. There's really no way around that. So that's bad.

Bringing this around to my original point, if you're searching for the "real Shaolin" then I think you probably wasted your time. If you didn't much buy the lineage story anyway and you think the system is effective and well-designed, then I don't see how the time spent training it is wasted time. Sucks to be lied to either way but I'm just sayin'.

[LaterthanNever]

"I'm thinking of someone else who made it all up, too."

My goodness...you've got:

Simon Olaf(Temple Kung Fu)
Iron Kim(Oom young do)-did he admit he made his stuff up? Not sure. But any guy who is in prison for Tax evasion can't be too ethical.

Ashida Kim(not sure if he made it up..but I heard that he lives w/ his mom in a bsement somewhere

and now..Shaolin Do!

[wenshu]

So, what does finally hearing from the horse's mouth that Shaolin Do was, in part, or all, fabricated bring to the CMA community? What does it bring to the KFM Forum community?

A hell of a lot of rationalization.

[IronFist]

But then, western boxing isn't like it was 80 years ago either.

[Judge Pen]

um...


seriously?

I mean, really? you actually are surprised to learn that it's not an "authentic" Shaolin-based art? I mean, it looks nothing like it, the entire story behind it is so obviously BS, and people on here w legitimate Shaolin-art lineage have been debunking it for years;

and you are surprised he fabricated it?




wow...

No I'm not surprised or particularly upset. I've been frequenting these forums for years and understand all the criticisms (and agree with many of them). I kept training because I thought the material was good despite its ambiguous origins. But many many student started training and kept training because of the representations and to have "from the horse's mouth" confirmation is a big deal to SD.