Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 61 to 75 of 82

Thread: The secret to Wing Chun

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by tigershorty View Post
    where are my posts you deleted/edited savi?

    where are all the posts from the hfy student forum?

    what's up with me asking what forms HFY had on the hfy108 after training over 4 years and you asking what i had done to deserve such knowledge and being a complete jerk to me?

    you're secretive, you censor and you're full of it. you don't even know chum kiu or bil jee and you're a "sifu". seriously, dude- check your ego. that's why no one goes to hfy108 anymore, not even HFY people.
    This is exactly my point. I asked JPinAZ this question, "I read some where that GM Gee has been teaching HFY since the 70's, and he is still the only HFY sifu out there? Is that true?"

    JPinAZ, answered, "There are many active HFY instructors, schools and clubs in different areas in and out of the US. "

    So tigershorty says that savi is a "sifu" and he doesn't even know chum kiu or bil jee. Don't you have to at least know these forms before you become a sifu? Is there a difference between a HFY instructor and a HFY sifu? How many HFY practitioners out there in the world that knows anything beyond the first form? I mean, GM Gee has been teaching WC since the 70's and I finally just saw the first video of HYF Siu Nim Tao. Talk about secrecy or having something to hide? HFY practitioners please answer the above questions.

    A little more about myself. I'm in my 40's. My Sifu is in his 60's. It took him almost 10 years before he taught me Chum Kiu. I have a good feeling I remain in Chum Kiu for 10 years before he teaches me Bil Jee. Then spend another 10 years in Bil Jee. My Sifu will probably be dead by then since he is not a healthy guy.

    So that is my grief. Is it the subconscious sense that my Sifu will teach me his WC secrets if I stick around long enough or are my eyes opening up to the reality that it's not only my Sifu that is doing this but the majority of all Sifu's are doing this....collecting fees from every student for as long as he can with a subconscious promise that he will teach me the complete "secret, superior, or traditional" Wing Chun.

    Everyone. Please share your thoughts. How long have you been practicing WC and where are you at in terms of learning? I'd especially like to hear from the HFY guys since their WC seems to be the most secretive?

  2. #62
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    5,714
    Secrecy in any endeavour of this nature is ultimately self-defeating.

    The usual analogy is cryptography. The best encyption methods are not those which are kept secret. The best are those which are published openly for anyone to try and crack. If the method is still uncracked after three, or five, years, after being bashed by enverone in the encryption and hacker communities, then you can have a high level of confidence in it.

    Can you rely on a method that's never been scrutinised by experts or been subjected to sustained pressure? Would you use a climbing rope of secret materials that had never been load tested and no one had ever climbed with before?

    BJJ is a martial art where secrecy is impossible, because of public competition. The best guys have to bring their A game and everything they've got. If they don't use the best and most effective techniques in their arsenal, they are going to lose. And even the technique that is unstoppable and cleans everyone else up at one time does not stay that way, because people scrutinise it, come up with counters, etc. Then the original guy works out counters to the counters or better ways of doing the technique that make the counters impossible, so that everything evolves and improves.

    The element of surprise is great, but doesn't last for very long.

    The "secret" techniques of the w@nker you've been paying money to for a decade never get tested because they are never shown and never tried against a resisting opponent. They haven't been tested or developed under pressure. He probably isn't that good at them himself because he never or hardly ever gets the opportunity to try them out agi\ainst resistance.

    Go somewhere else.

    There is a case for a teaching progression and not getting the student to work on exotic or advanced techniques until the fundamental are mastered. But that ain't what we're talking about.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  3. #63
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Sydney Australia
    Posts
    943
    Quote Originally Posted by jonlee View Post
    ...are my eyes opening up to the reality that it's not only my Sifu that is doing this but the majority of all Sifu's are doing this....collecting fees from every student for as long as he can with a subconscious promise that he will teach me the complete "secret, superior, or traditional" Wing Chun.
    WRONG. There are plenty of good guys out there. You may have had a bad experience but you shouldn't generalize.

    Yes, I have met some dishonest guys; In general, if the teacher is not enthusiastic about teaching his students I won't waste my time with them.

    I have also met numerous teachers whom give you so much you will still be digesting months after meeting them.

    Good luck in your quest. There are plenty of good guys out there.
    Dr. J Fung
    www.kulowingchun.com

    "打得好就詠春,打得唔好就dum春"

  4. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    Secrecy in any endeavour of this nature is ultimately self-defeating.

    The usual analogy is cryptography. The best encyption methods are not those which are kept secret. The best are those which are published openly for anyone to try and crack. If the method is still uncracked after three, or five, years, after being bashed by enverone in the encryption and hacker communities, then you can have a high level of confidence in it.

    Can you rely on a method that's never been scrutinised by experts or been subjected to sustained pressure? Would you use a climbing rope of secret materials that had never been load tested and no one had ever climbed with before?

    BJJ is a martial art where secrecy is impossible, because of public competition. The best guys have to bring their A game and everything they've got. If they don't use the best and most effective techniques in their arsenal, they are going to lose. And even the technique that is unstoppable and cleans everyone else up at one time does not stay that way, because people scrutinise it, come up with counters, etc. Then the original guy works out counters to the counters or better ways of doing the technique that make the counters impossible, so that everything evolves and improves.

    The element of surprise is great, but doesn't last for very long.

    The "secret" techniques of the w@nker you've been paying money to for a decade never get tested because they are never shown and never tried against a resisting opponent. They haven't been tested or developed under pressure. He probably isn't that good at them himself because he never or hardly ever gets the opportunity to try them out agi\ainst resistance.

    Go somewhere else.

    There is a case for a teaching progression and not getting the student to work on exotic or advanced techniques until the fundamental are mastered. But that ain't what we're talking about.
    anerlich, great anology! You make good sense.

    I remember a conversation I had with my Sifu a couple years back. I asked him how long did he studied WC with his Sifu and he said, "5 years." In 5 years, my Sifu learned all the forms and it's application and it's secrets and became a Sifu. I'm pass my 10th year and I am just barely being taught Chuim Kiu. It just doesn't add up. To be honest. I don't even care about the secrets anymore. I just want someone to honestly teach me all the forms and it's applications as best as they know without any sense of secrecy. But that doesn't look like it will happen because if I go to a different school, I'm guessing the cycle will repeat itself. If I go and start up with something new like Hung Fa Yi Wing Chun. I'm sure the Sifu there will start me at his Siu Nim Tao level and collect fees on that level until he feels I'm ready to move to the next level which can be another 5-10 years before I am even consider to move Chum Kiu level. I'm sure you guys get my point. I'm just frustrated!!
    Last edited by jonlee; 03-30-2012 at 11:17 PM.

  5. #65
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    5,714
    I've encountered jonlee's experience as well. 5 1/2 years with a Xingyi/Bagua guy learning next to nothing but getting tossed a crumb every now and then to keep me hanging around. could have got red sash in another year but realised it would have meant zip.

    That experience has been abnormal. All my other instructors held nothing back. There was a graduated curriculum. But about 1.5 years to CK, three to BJ. Dummy at the same time. Weapons in seminars. I knew all the forms within 5 years, graded to instructor level in 7. Wow, I'm a Sifu!

    It didn't get me a higher income or help me pull more chicks (though I was married, so I can't say it wouldn't have worked for a single guy.)

    Being a Sifu is WAY overrated unless you have a messiah complex. Teaching well is f*cking hard work. Students come and go. Impermanance.

    I started doing BJJ because it interested me and was a lot of fun, and it worked. 12 more years and I'm a brown belt. But still a student. One guy I do seminars with gives out so much info in two hours that I spend months digesting and practising it.

    Being a student rocks. Being a Sifu is overrated. Calling yourself a master makes you a complete w@nker.

    Is it the subconscious sense that my Sifu will teach me his WC secrets if I stick around long enough or are my eyes opening up to the reality that it's not only my Sifu that is doing this but the majority of all Sifu's are doing this....collecting fees from every student for as long as he can with a subconscious promise that he will teach me the complete "secret, superior, or traditional" Wing Chun.
    Not the norm by any means. You want to open your eyes? Go look at other MA schools.
    Last edited by anerlich; 03-31-2012 at 04:46 AM.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  6. #66

    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by anerlich View Post
    I've encountered jonlee's experience as well. 5 1/2 years with a Xingyi/Bagua guy learning next to nothing but getting tossed a crumb every now and then to keep me hanging around. could have got red sash in another year but realised it would have meant zip.

    That experience has been abnormal. All my other instructors held nothing back. There was a graduated curriculum. But about 1.5 years to CK, three to BJ. Dummy at the same time. Weapons in seminars. I knew all the forms within 5 years, graded to instructor level in 7. Wow, I'm a Sifu!

    It didn't get me a higher income or help me pull more chicks (though I was married, so I can't say it wouldn't have worked for a single guy.)

    Being a Sifu is WAY overrated unless you have a messiah complex. Teaching well is f*cking hard work. Students come and go. Impermanance.

    I started doing BJJ because it interested me and was a lot of fun, and it worked. 12 more years and I'm a brown belt. But still a student. One guy I do seminars with gives out so much info in two hours that I spend months digesting and practising it.

    Being a student rocks. Being a Sifu is overrated. Calling yourself a master makes you a complete w@nker.



    Not the norm by any means. You want to open your eyes? Go look at other MA schools.
    great post
    Fut Hong Wing Chun Kuen (a.k.a. Invisible Buddha Fist Wing Chun), Northern New Jersey
    IBFWC @ youtube
    BBL28888 @ youtube


    "Everybody's gotta plan, until they get hit!" - Mike Tyson

    "Rule number 1: Don't get hit. Rule number 2: Remember rule number one."- Sifu Joseph Ng

    "Pure or Impure Wing Chun, whatever beats an opponent is good Wing Chun" - pg 50, Wing Chun Warrior: The True Tales of WCKF Master Duncan Leung

  7. #67
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    233
    What about the secret 4th form jk

  8. #68
    Join Date
    Jan 1970
    Location
    Sydney, Australia
    Posts
    5,714
    Quote Originally Posted by mjw View Post
    What about the secret 4th form jk
    Make it up. That's what all the others did.
    "Once you reject experience, and begin looking for the mysterious, then you are caught!" - Krishnamurti
    "We are all one" - Genki Sudo
    "We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion" - Tool, Parabol/Parabola
    "Bro, you f***ed up a long time ago" - Kurt Osiander

    WC Academy BJJ/MMA Academy Surviving Violent Crime TCM Info
    Don't like my posts? Challenge me!

  9. #69
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,781
    Jon Lee, you're a pretty funny guy. You make some pretty interesting accusations about your posts being deleted on HFY 108, how every one 'gangs up on you' there, use chinese words to confuse you (LOL on that one), etc yet you still want answers from HFY people? Who are you anyway?

    Eric, who is a mod at HFY 108, came here to address your 'complaints', and both of us asked you to provide ANY information so we could genuinely get to the bottom of your accusations. You've still given none. So, why should you be taken seriously?
    You sling mud, offer no proof to your 'claim' what-so-ever, but then also expect answers from the people you are accusing?
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  10. #70
    QUOTE=JPinAZ;1165245]Jon Lee, you're a pretty funny guy. You make some pretty interesting accusations about your posts being deleted on HFY 108, how every one 'gangs up on you' there, use chinese words to confuse you (LOL on that one), etc yet you still want answers from HFY people? Who are you anyway?

    Eric, who is a mod at HFY 108, came here to address your 'complaints', and both of us asked you to provide ANY information so we could genuinely get to the bottom of your accusations. You've still given none. So, why should you be taken seriously?
    You sling mud, offer no proof to your 'claim' what-so-ever, but then also expect answers from the people you are accusing? [/QUOTE]

    JPinAZ, you don't have to take me seriously. It's been a while since I posted on HFY108 and will probably never go back their because I felt I was censored. All I remember is that I might have said something that HFY people didn't like and figured that since HFY108 is owned by HFY guys, they might have deleted my comments or posts. You asked, "Who are you anyway?" Well, I am a police officer in the L.A. area who enjoys martial arts, in particular WC. I'm in a situation now where I need to decide if I should leave my current school and join a new school or quit WC all together.

    You or HFY guys don't have to answer any questions that you don't want to. Keep the ancient Chinese secrets to yourself if that is what you choose to do. All I know right now from this post is that I'm not the only one who left like they were censored at HFY108. Tigershorty also felt that way too. I also learned that if I decided to joined a new WC school like HFY, there is only one real Sifu called "GM GEE", a bunch of "so-called" HFY instructors and one other HFY sifu called "savi" that only knows the first wing chun form. Which leads me to assume that if I joined a new school like HFY Wing Chun, I will still be in the same situation I am in right now; where I will be kept at the Siu Nim Tao level for another 5 - 10 years just to collect fees before the Sifu decides to move me to the next level. So now you have me wondering, that GM GEE has been teaching since the 70's and so far he has only produced one HFY sifu called "savi" who only knows the first WC form. Is this true or not? I don't know. I am making assumptions which might make an ass out of myself, but no one has stepped up to tell me anything different.
    Last edited by jonlee; 04-01-2012 at 02:34 PM.

  11. #71
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Arizona
    Posts
    1,781
    Since you won't even give your name on HFY108 for the mods to check into, your 'allegations' mean very little to me. And now it seems you are even starting to have some memory issues with what really 'might' have happened that I'm starting to think it's all just BS . I see no point in coming here to cry about it if you aren't even willing back up your 'claims'.

    As for the rest of the nonsense, if people are happy to pass judgement based on rumors and gossip, that's their choice. But I'm not wasting any more time with it. I'm done with this thread
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 04-01-2012 at 01:32 PM.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Since you won't even give your name on HFY108 for the mods to check into, your 'allegations' mean very little to me. And now it seems you are even starting to have some memory issues with what really 'might' have happened that I'm starting to think it's all just BS . I see no point in coming here to cry about it if you aren't even willing back up your 'claims'.

    As for the rest of the nonsense, if people are happy to pass judgement based on rumors and gossip, that's their choice. But I'm not wasting any more time with it. I'm done with this thread
    JPinAZ, you sound angry. I am angry too, but not at you or that HFY108 had deleted my posts in the pass. I am angry because I spent so much time and money into WC and I am just not happy with my current situation. Hopefully, you were lucky and didn't experience the same thing I did. Hopefully, GM GEE did produce more than one Sifu other than Savi who only knows one form. I apologize if I offended anyone. I hope you can say to yourself, that your Sifu was a good Sifu. Who taught you what you wanted to learn. Who didn't keep you around promising you secrets just to collect fees.

    For all Sifu's reading this thread. I hope you don't do what my Sifu did to me.
    Last edited by jonlee; 04-01-2012 at 02:44 PM.

  13. #73
    Join Date
    Jan 2012
    Location
    far east, north america
    Posts
    109
    You asked, "Who are you anyway?" Well, I am a police officer in the L.A. area who enjoys martial arts, in particular WC. I'm in a situation now where I need to decide if I should leave my current school and join a new school or quit WC all together.
    Who is the current WC sifu you study under in LA?
    Gary Lam or ???
    or...could it be SergioRazta!

    ANNOYING MY MOM PART 2 - @SergioRazta
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xo6mtRYnPuA

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by jonlee View Post
    JPinAZ, you don't have to take me seriously. It's been a while since I posted on HFY108 and will probably never go back their because I felt I was censored. All I remember is that I might have said something that HFY people didn't like and figured that since HFY108 is owned by HFY guys, they might have deleted my comments or posts.
    So as a fair and balanced response, that HFY108 forum a while back had a whole lot of internal family struggle going on causing people to delete posts and argue a lot. Some of that spilled over here and is in the archives. For a historical background of that it all centered around Benny Meng around the time of him leaving HFY. Meng was the sigung to the AZ HFY group, joined HFY, then later left HFY. The AZ HFY group stayed with HFY and Garrett Gee. You had both Meng's guys on one side and some of the AZ HFY guys on the other all as mods so there's probably no telling who deleted what posts.

    Right now that forum has the opposite problem - nobody posts there
    You asked, "Who are you anyway?" Well, I am a police officer in the L.A. area who enjoys martial arts, in particular WC. I'm in a situation now where I need to decide if I should leave my current school and join a new school or quit WC all together.
    Well, nice to meet you. That's a tough decision.

    You or HFY guys don't have to answer any questions that you don't want to. Keep the ancient Chinese secrets to yourself if that is what you choose to do. All I know right now from this post is that I'm not the only one who left like they were censored at HFY108. Tigershorty also felt that way too.
    Yeah, no doubt. I'm sure I've got a fair amount of content over there that has been moved around, made private, etc. Hopefully the above gives a little background.
    I also learned that if I decided to joined a new WC school like HFY, there is only one real Sifu called "GM GEE", a bunch of "so-called" HFY instructors and one other HFY sifu called "savi" that only knows the first wing chun form.
    Garrett Gee is the lineage holder of HFY - the head "sifu" if you will - he goes by sifu and doesn't use the same title as others (like Leung Ting - Master of Almightiness or whatever, or sigung). He has an instructor program introduced in mid 2000's - of which a bunch of people are certified sifus to the SNT level (first form). While sifu Gee is teaching a whole bunch of layers to the first form, those guys - who some are starting to call themselves "sifus" now - are more like "sifus in training" in an apprenticeship. Savi knows more than the first form.

    [QUOTE]
    Which leads me to assume that if I joined a new school like HFY Wing Chun, I will still be in the same situation I am in right now; where I will be kept at the Siu Nim Tao level for another 5 - 10 years just to collect fees before the Sifu decides to move me to the next level.
    [QUOTE]
    In HFY, I would say that it takes a bit of time to get through all the SNT layers - maybe a few years or so, but once you learn it and prove it you get the next layer. However, and this is something to consider, if you break up teaching an art from zero to mastery in say 10-12 years, that's about normal. It takes that long to get a BJJ black belt, for comparison.

    But it's very likely if you hook up with a mediocre secretive sifu in WCK that you will wind up in exactly the situation you are now.
    So now you have me wondering, that GM GEE has been teaching since the 70's and so far he has only produced one HFY sifu called "savi" who only knows the first WC form. Is this true or not? I don't know. I am making assumptions which might make an ass out of myself, but no one has stepped up to tell me anything different.
    He has long-time students - some sifus, some not. Sifu Allen Kong, who doesn't post on forums, is one of those. Alex (duende) who posts here is another.

    Hope that gives you some realistic answers.

  15. #75
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    The Chi (Chicago)
    Posts
    950
    Quote Originally Posted by jonlee View Post
    The secret to most Chinese martial arts is that it has to have a sense of secrecy in order for it to thrive. Since most of my experience with Chinese martial arts comes from Wing Chun, I will use Wing Chun as an example. I’ve been studying Wing Chun for over 10 years. Every Wing Chun school that I have been too, gives off an atmosphere that their Wing Chun is better or more original or more traditional or more superior. In a sense, it is more secretive and only taught to loyal students or indoor disciples. The Sifu’s I have encountered subconsciously re-enforces that he will share this secret with all us if we remain loyal to him and his lineage. For the past 10 years, I’ve never learned anything I would consider to be “secret, original, traditional or superior ”Wing Chun." .
    Brother, you said a mouthful! Amen. Reminds me of David Ross' post: "My teacher, like a lot of Chinese teachers, felt that those who mattered always knew the real deal and those who didn't know the "real deal" never mattered. A sifu in the martial arts community (Mo Lum) knows exactly how a real Baai Si (adoption) ceremony takes place. If you say you were adopted and don't have the right things, a real person in the Mo Lum is going to laugh his azz off at you and take you for a clown. Of course, most Americans don't know thing #1 about this sort of stuff

    A real Baai Si is a public event. It is usually announced, often in newspapers. Mine was.

    A fortune teller is consulted to find the right date, you must submit to your sifu your date and time of birth.

    A real Baai Si must have witnesses, at least one a MAJOR figure in the Mo Lum. My #1 Baai Si witness was Sifu Frank Yee (Yee Chi Wai) of the Dang Fong Hung Ga lineage.

    My other two witneses were a Choy Lay Fut teacher and a member of one of the associations.

    A real Baai Si involves you receiving a reb paper books which has important Kuen Po and which is signed by you, your sifu and the witnesses.

    To my knowledge, my sifu did four Baai Si in China before coming here. He did three official Baai Si in the US, all done in the Mineola school myself, Gus Kapros and Michael Parrella opened.

    I bring this up because my sifu, like many sifu I know, was also capable of turning to someone and telling them "hey, you got $500? I'll adopt you. Come to my house on a Thursday night with teh cash and BOOM you're adopted!"

    The senior students had a huge issue with Sifu Chan over this sort of stuff. My sifu always scoffed and laughed. He said that anyone who mattered, ie real people in the Mo Lum, would never take someone claiming to be adopted from one of these "late night cash sessions" seriously.

    And if another ignorant American believed someone was an adopted disciple because of this? WHO CARED. They didn't matter anyway...

    It was also common knowledge that my sifu had A, B, C, even D versions of everything he taught. Like I said previously, usually in 5 minutes he figured out whether you had potential or not. If you didn't, he never bothered to even try and show you the real stuff...

    This is why, from time to time, you'll see some whining SOB claim that Chan Tai San didn't know anything. He'll inevitably claim he studied with him and learned crap. Of course, that doesn't mean Sifu Chan didn't know anything, it meant he never showed YOU anything of value. There is a difference....."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •