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Thread: Was Wing Chun meant to be a complete system?

  1. #16
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    So, what exactly does 'define' a complete Martial Art? Surely you are not suggesting an 'empty hand' art is complete?? Karate is not complete.
    Walk into a Kyokushin Dojo and suggest their MA is "incomplete"



    Are you actually being serious???
    I think you should answer that question yourself

    These 'sports' you list are just that. Sport. Martial Sport, if you prefer. All 'designed' or updated in the last century to enable a safe 'competing' platform. Don't confuse them with Martial Arts!!!
    God thats offensive, and stupid as well. The fact that the arts you mention would 9 times out of 10 chew up and spit out a WC guy on the "streets" shows how nonsensical your ideas are

    I will offer my definition of 'complete' and see if anyone else can add to my idea. I believe a complete Martial Art must have representation of various areas of practise that help develop us as human beings, not just to fight for fighting sake, but to defend ourselves, our loved ones and the weaker/less healthy members of society. We do this by training people in a number of ways:
    We? So the "sports" you mention dont encourage the personal development of the practitioner and dont equip them to defend themselves or loved ones? Only "true" martial arts have a monopoly on this do they?

    1. Form practise. Solo training to enhance technical understanding and basic foundation movements key to a systems development. Many forms have had individual input, becoming more of a 'stylistic' representation of said person/s. This isn't a bad thing, as long as the system knowledge is not sacrificed and lost.
    Shadow boxing, mirror work and slow repetitive techniques to ingrain the movement.

    2. Interactive practise. Call it sparring if you prefer! But when you train with a partner to develop your skill, this is 'interactive martial play'. It is our Chisau/Looksau/Gorsau and Sansau platform. But only if you remove the 'competitive' ego driven nature most younger students seem to have these days lol!
    Sparring & partner drills

    3. Equipment practise. Take our Wooden Man as an example, it is unique to our system because of it's scientific design but common in almost all other Chinese Martial Arts as an apparatus that assists in power development. Just like hitting a tree, wall bag, makiwara board or modern boxing pad. Equipment is key to actually feeling contact without injuries.
    Heavy bag, focus mitts, thai pads and kick shields

    4. Weaponry practice. I know it's an old cliche and many may disagree, but without weaponry training you're not really training a 'Martial' Art. We are lucky in Wing Chun that we hold two key weapons that enhance our short and long range fighting skill. One of the only Chinese Systems that has detailed knowedge of both imho using only 2 base weapons rather than the original 18 Lohan designs
    .

    So the styles with more weapons and forms are more complete than WC?

    5. Cultural practice. Whether it be BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai or Judo every art has it's origins and history and just learning a little about theoriginal culture of any give Martial Art may help join a few dots together. Wing Chun is know to be able to 'talk the fight' due to our basic concepts and if two Sifus meet they have a language and culture they can share, before they even cross hands.
    Tell the Thai's there is no culture in MT (whats the Ram Muay for?), the Japanese there is no culture in JJ or Karate, Brazilians BJJ..... do you see how condescending you sound Spencer?

    Now, put all that together in a short period of time. It isn't difficult to see how this forms a complete understanding of the Wing Chun system, and if you are honestly missing anything here, go find someone that can help you because this is as complete as any Martial Art need to be imho.
    PLENTY of chinese martial artists view WC as an incomplete system due to its lack of forms and techniques in comparison to theirs. Using your logic they are right.... your thoughts?

    This is the very reason we still exist as a system. This is why I find it difficult to watch people 'add' things like Escrima, or BJJ to a Wing Chun curriculum. We are as complete as we can be, and most if not all the hard work has already been done by the ancestors. All we have to do is continue and Wing Chun will still be here in another thousand years
    Yip Man changed and added/discarded things.... i for one hope he wont be the last

  2. #17
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    not being able to prove it was my point. if it's perfect on paper, but if you can't perform what the perfect concepts/theories state then how complete is a system?
    Yep good point. Assuming its "perfect" but the concepts are hard to implement, then how complete is it

    the lack of ground training is easily dismissed in wing chun because the theories state how to avoid such a time-frame, but most wing chun people are going to get sacked and end up on the ground.
    Yep again, notice how quiet the forum is in response to this

    Though God bless Spencer for his two bobs worth

  3. #18
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    This is the very reason we still exist as a system. This is why I find it difficult to watch people 'add' things like Escrima, or BJJ to a Wing Chun curriculum. We are as complete as we can be, and most if not all the hard work has already been done by the ancestors. All we have to do is continue and Wing Chun will still be here in another thousand years
    __________________
    Small fact of nature "that which does not evolve dies" if it is not striving to improve and add different things then it is dying.
    Im sorry to break your bubble and this has been pounded into the ground, but wc and for that matter tcma does not have a system for ground. But neither does bjj or wrestling have a full understanding of striking.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    To date, I have not found the need to add or take away anything within the system's core principles and concepts, nor have I have found one inconsistancy within the system, or been able to find a situation it didn't have an answer for.
    So I'm picking on you a little bit here Jonathan regarding this post. And my caveat to this is I know you guys just did a seminar on using WCK to address boxer/mma fighter approaches and grappler approaches which I think is absolutely awesome and what should be happening.

    "haven't been able to find a situation it didn't have an answer for".

    Here are two situations:

    1) Mount
    2) Back Mount

    What are the WCK system POV answers for these? How do you handle it if you get there?

    So for comparison sake, I've seldom heard BJJ make claims about it being a complete system, that it addresses every eventuality. Well, actually maybe only direct members of the Gracie family, and usually the ones that aren't fighting.

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Dragonzbane76 View Post
    But neither does bjj or wrestling have a full understanding of striking.
    Wrestlers are many times some of the worst strikers ever. They really push their punches and have a hard time learning to throw them correctly. Also, BJJ players are often very bad at defending wrestling takedowns despite the clinch/ground focus.

  6. #21
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    Hopefully this will be my last post on this thread, as I think I have said enough. Some of these negative comments just needed a response!

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Walk into a Kyokushin Dojo and suggest their MA is "incomplete"
    Translate 'Kyokushin' for us all because you are so off the mark it makes me smile... actually this is a perfect example of what I am trying to put across here.

    "Kyokushin kaikan (極真会館) is a style of stand-up, full contact karate, founded in 1964 by Korean-Japanese karate master Masutatsu Oyama"

    In other words, a new creation designed to promote 'sport' competition.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    God thats offensive, and stupid as well. The fact that the arts you mention would 9 times out of 10 chew up and spit out a WC guy on the "streets" shows how nonsensical your ideas are
    Really? I think your response is very offensive! lol!

    Whatever I have written here is meant to be discussed, no offence is intended dude so try re-reading it all again...

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    We? So the "sports" you mention dont encourage the personal development of the practitioner and dont equip them to defend themselves or loved ones? Only "true" martial arts have a monopoly on this do they?
    Oh! Did I actually say that?? No. The question I am addressing is what makes a system, or more specifically our Wing Chun system, COMPLETE.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Shadow boxing, mirror work and slow repetitive techniques to ingrain the movement.
    This is not what structured 'form' is. Form isn't FREESTYLE. So unless Jack Dempsey passed on his specific shadow boxing combos and such in a set pattern, you are clutching at straws with this one imho.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Sparring & partner drills
    Now you are on the money

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Heavy bag, focus mitts, thai pads and kick shields
    I think I covered that. But again, you are spot on.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    So the styles with more weapons and forms are more complete than WC?
    Ah! here you crash and burn lol!! And no, this is not what I am saying with regards to the more weapons you have the more complete your system.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Tell the Thai's there is no culture in MT (whats the Ram Muay for?), the Japanese there is no culture in JJ or Karate, Brazilians BJJ..... do you see how condescending you sound Spencer?
    Again dude, what the hell are you reading?? I do get worried when people that shout about how great they are seem to not be able to read simple posts. You have totally got the wrong impression I was aiming to put across, so please READ AGAIN!!

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    PLENTY of chinese martial artists view WC as an incomplete system due to its lack of forms and techniques in comparison to theirs. Using your logic they are right.... your thoughts?
    Plenty of other Chinese Martial Artists? Really? C'mon, you may as well drop their names...

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Yip Man changed and added/discarded things.... i for one hope he wont be the last
    Ip Man was a scholar and Martial Artist (according to his family) so I can only presume that he knew exactly what he was doing!! Which is so much more than I can say about others. And FWIW I also hope Wing Chun evolves because that is it's nature. It is also why we are named Wing Chun.

    But you would know this if you practised the system wouldn't you?
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  7. #22
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    I will offer my definition of 'complete' and see if anyone else can add to my idea. I believe a complete Martial Art must have representation of various areas of practise that help develop us as human beings, not just to fight for fighting sake, but to defend ourselves, our loved ones and the weaker/less healthy members of society.
    So to be a complete martial art it must be built on an ethical platform? Which one? They are not all the same you know. Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, how about "Ein Volk, Ein Furher!".

    Don't confuse them with Martial Arts!!!
    Here we get into the definition thing again as to what is martial. I don't see current "martial arts" as be martial any more. They have little use on the modern battlefield and their ineffectiveness was clearly demonstrated when large numbers of "martial artists" were defeated by soldiers with bolt action rifles, modern rifles makes it even worse. To be honest I don't see this martial arts as having been effective even way back when. Dueling arts do not lend themselves to large unit based warfare even going back as far as the Greeks. They only becomes effective if unit cohesion breaks down and it turns into melee fighting. If the units are well trained that doesn't happen very often.

    If you get to draw your line in the sand then I get to draw mine.
    Last edited by m1k3; 03-29-2012 at 07:29 AM.
    Mike

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    This is the very reason we still exist as a system. This is why I find it difficult to watch people 'add' things like Escrima, or BJJ to a Wing Chun curriculum. We are as complete as we can be, and most if not all the hard work has already been done by the ancestors. All we have to do is continue and Wing Chun will still be here in another thousand years
    Fortunately I got the chance practice/play with experienced practitioneers of the arts you mentioned above. My conclusion, I wish I have the skill level of the WC and BJJ guy in addition to my skill in Eskrima. I know you're already an advanced WC guy, so I really hope on of these days you explore and experience the benefits of cross-training. In my case, it helped me understand more of my primary art (eskrima), it's strengths and more importantly "borrow" pieces from other arts to rectify my eskrima's vulnerabilities.
    Last edited by free2flow; 03-29-2012 at 07:20 AM.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    As a striking art, yes. On the ground, there's nothing less efficient than a fish out of water. And the vast majority of WCK practitioners are exactly that on the ground.

    WCK does lack a ground game. That is factual, not opinion, viewpoint, or whatever. I'm really not sure at all what a "shapes-only POV" is. Does a WCK practitioner sucking on the ground have a particular shape? What is the shape of suckage?

    If you can't acknowledge weaknesses then you really can't identify and take advantages of strengths either.
    Are you saying none of WC's concepts/principles work on the ground?
    Also, can you say you understand all of WCK's fighting ideas to answer?

    My whole point was about perspective of those asking the question and how they define the words 'complete' and 'system', as well as of those that answer. It's not a simple question because too many people view the words 'complete' and 'system' so differently.

    FWIW, I was careful to say "or that it lacks a ground game as viewed from a BJJ perspective." for a reason. I knew this would come up and there was a strong chance someone would say "Well, WCK doesn't have a ground game (like BJJ), so it's incomplete" No, WCK does not train a ground game like BJJ does, and I'm not arguing it does. We both know that would be silly and I never intended to even imply it.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    So, what exactly does 'define' a complete Martial Art? Surely you are not suggesting an 'empty hand' art is complete?? Karate is not complete.



    Are you actually being serious???

    These 'sports' you list are just that. Sport. Martial Sport, if you prefer. All 'designed' or updated in the last century to enable a safe 'competing' platform. Don't confuse them with Martial Arts!!!

    I will offer my definition of 'complete' and see if anyone else can add to my idea. I believe a complete Martial Art must have representation of various areas of practise that help develop us as human beings, not just to fight for fighting sake, but to defend ourselves, our loved ones and the weaker/less healthy members of society. We do this by training people in a number of ways:

    1. Form practise. Solo training to enhance technical understanding and basic foundation movements key to a systems development. Many forms have had individual input, becoming more of a 'stylistic' representation of said person/s. This isn't a bad thing, as long as the system knowledge is not sacrificed and lost.

    2. Interactive practise. Call it sparring if you prefer! But when you train with a partner to develop your skill, this is 'interactive martial play'. It is our Chisau/Looksau/Gorsau and Sansau platform. But only if you remove the 'competitive' ego driven nature most younger students seem to have these days lol!

    3. Equipment practise. Take our Wooden Man as an example, it is unique to our system because of it's scientific design but common in almost all other Chinese Martial Arts as an apparatus that assists in power development. Just like hitting a tree, wall bag, makiwara board or modern boxing pad. Equipment is key to actually feeling contact without injuries.

    4. Weaponry practice. I know it's an old cliche and many may disagree, but without weaponry training you're not really training a 'Martial' Art. We are lucky in Wing Chun that we hold two key weapons that enhance our short and long range fighting skill. One of the only Chinese Systems that has detailed knowedge of both imho using only 2 base weapons rather than the original 18 Lohan designs.

    5. Cultural practice. Whether it be BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai or Judo every art has it's origins and history and just learning a little about theoriginal culture of any give Martial Art may help join a few dots together. Wing Chun is know to be able to 'talk the fight' due to our basic concepts and if two Sifus meet they have a language and culture they can share, before they even cross hands.

    Now, put all that together in a short period of time. It isn't difficult to see how this forms a complete understanding of the Wing Chun system, and if you are honestly missing anything here, go find someone that can help you because this is as complete as any Martial Art need to be imho.

    This is the very reason we still exist as a system. This is why I find it difficult to watch people 'add' things like Escrima, or BJJ to a Wing Chun curriculum. We are as complete as we can be, and most if not all the hard work has already been done by the ancestors. All we have to do is continue and Wing Chun will still be here in another thousand years
    Nice to see that those that don’t spar or fight and don’t even have full time schools can still tell the rest of us what a martial art is or is not

    Its also telling that most guys coming from this complete school of kung fu get their backsides handed to them in full contact environments…the ones that don’t seem willing to adopt in and learn from other styles (like Alan Orr and Phil)

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
    So to be a complete martial art it must be built on an ethical platform? Which one? They are not all the same you know. Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, how about "Ein Volk, Ein Furher!".
    No I'm not saying anyone HAS to do anything, I was expressing my belief (which by the way is not any of the Religions/Leadership groups you mention!)

    I guess I was writing quickly and simply expressing my disappointment in the fact that many guys I have met and talked to seem to take up Martial Arts these days to 'start' fights and test themselves, rather than when I was a kid who just wanted to be a better human being.

    Quote Originally Posted by m1k3 View Post
    Here we get into the definition thing again as to what is martial. I don't see current "martial arts" as be martial any more.
    In fact I totally agree with your view, especially in respect to modern warfare and weaponry development. But does this also mean that you under appreciate the weaponry tha existed in Martial Arts 100/500/1000 years ago?

    Our pole and knife practises are deep rooted in older traditions FME and this is all I am suggetsing here in relation to other Martial Arts that do not include ANY weaponry of such in their training... like BJJ and boxing for example.
    Ti Fei
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  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by free2flow View Post
    I know you're already an advanced WC guy, so I really hope on of these days you explore and experience the benefits of cross-training.
    I think this is what I was trying to share here (and I thought I wouldn't say anymore lol!)

    For me, Wing Chun is ALREADY a system of cross-training imho as I view cross-training as covering the areas of practise I previously mentioned.
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    So I'm picking on you a little bit here Jonathan regarding this post. And my caveat to this is I know you guys just did a seminar on using WCK to address boxer/mma fighter approaches and grappler approaches which I think is absolutely awesome and what should be happening.

    "haven't been able to find a situation it didn't have an answer for".

    Here are two situations:

    1) Mount
    2) Back Mount

    What are the WCK system POV answers for these? How do you handle it if you get there?

    So for comparison sake, I've seldom heard BJJ make claims about it being a complete system, that it addresses every eventuality. Well, actually maybe only direct members of the Gracie family, and usually the ones that aren't fighting.
    Haha, I get where you're coming from. I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying so I guess I'll bounce it back at you.
    When someone has mount or back mount, what is their intention? (well, besides the obvious of GNP or submission) What is a grappler trying to achieve in these positions, and how does he even get there? Are things like leverage, space, position, hip control, COG, etc important? How does someone from a 'BJJ perspective' deal with these things? Is the answer "oh, I use techniques X, Q, and Z", or is it really more about structure, position, leverage and COG control?
    Is BJJ just a bunch of techniques, or is there something a little deeper?
    This was my point.

    If people are going to ask, and answer, the question of a 'system' being 'complete', I think we should define both terms first so we know what each other are talking about. Or, we may get people talking about flying knees and if they are part of the system or not (no offense meant YKW)
    IMO, thinking "well, System X doesn't have Technique Z, so then it can't be complete" is really missing the boat on what WCK is.
    What chi sau is, or isn't, or is, or wait, what is it..: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/foru...2&postcount=90

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Nice to see that those that don’t spar or fight and don’t even have full time schools can still tell the rest of us what a martial art is or is not
    It's still nicer to see those unwilling participants of a 'discussion' seem to think that running a 'fulltime school' automatically makes you a Martial Artist!

    Why don't you comment on my post and refer to what I suggest, rather than aim a personal attack my way? So manly of you...

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Its also telling that most guys coming from this complete school of kung fu get their backsides handed to them in full contact environments…
    Wow! A new clique word... 'Full Contact Environments'

    How about putting a long pole in the hands of a full contact fighter and asking them to spar with, say, Phillip Bayer? Or even Alan Orr? How do you think your fighter will get on there?

    Just silly points that really have no place in my head to be honest.

    I do not want to train 'competitively' nowadays, as I am more interested in passing on what I know to be solid Wing Chun skills to the next generations.

    And FWIW I HAVE adopted a mindset from other 'sports'. I was an original Karate Kid, I love athletics, and I love boxing and train my body and have adopted certain traits from my younger competitive days, but I haven't adopted any other fighting 'style' or 'system' because I am very happy with where I am and what I hold.

    A complete system of Martial Art.

    In my own, non-fighting, inexperienced, non-business like opinion of course.
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    I think this is what I was trying to share here (and I thought I wouldn't say anymore lol!)
    lol, my bad. i didn't read it that way.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    For me, Wing Chun is ALREADY a system of cross-training imho as I view cross-training as covering the areas of practise I previously mentioned.
    For me, cross-training means going to other arts that are recognized as the best in their area of specialization. For example, I cross-train in BJJ to find out the problems an expert ground fighter can impose on me and not just a fellow eskrimador that know how to take a guy down and apply some locks. Hope I'm making some sense to you .

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