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Thread: Was Wing Chun meant to be a complete system?

  1. #31
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    Why does it have to be either-or?

    Why do I have to choose between training for sport (pressure-testing my skills in a safe environment) and training for the street (role-play and drills). AND why can't both these arenas cross over with each other?
    “An ounce of action is worth a ton of theory.” – Friedrich Engels

  2. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by free2flow View Post
    Hope I'm making some sense to you .
    Yes you are.

    I will share something with you. I actually have no problem in any Wing Chun student or Sifu learning other arts. It's just human nature to investigate as much as we can. I done the same, before I started Wing Chun.

    But I do have a problem with information from these other arts bleeding into the Wing Chun itself, and then attempting to sell the final product as a new variation of Wing Chun. I prefer to say it how it is. For example, this is Wing Chun with Escrima. The European Wing Tsun guys are big on this, and they seem to enjoy themselves which for me is all that matters in the end. But they keep the two systems separate. Yes, they have similarities, but you will know what I mean.

    Now let me ask you this:

    If I was to share with you a double stick method that 'seemed familiar' to you because of your Escrima experience, but it simply was not within the methods you knew, could you accept that this was Wing Chun Double Stick?? Have you ever seen or heard of the double stick methods of my Sigung? Or my Sifu? probably not.

    This is where it gets complicated imho, because the popularity and excellence of the Filipino Arts has sort of shunned my lineage into silence because we have a double stick method that has been passed on from my Sigung, and he never studied any Filipino Arts! He was a knife man, and the way we utilize our blades is different than the Filipino way, and this too is reflected in our double stick practices... so why would I take up Escrima? Can you see what I mean?

    Phew! I will take a breath now!
    Ti Fei
    詠春國術

  3. #33
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    Spencer, this is getting interesting.

    In fact I totally agree with your view, especially in respect to modern warfare and weaponry development. But does this also mean that you under appreciate the weaponry tha existed in Martial Arts 100/500/1000 years ago?

    Our pole and knife practises are deep rooted in older traditions FME and this is all I am suggetsing here in relation to other Martial Arts that do not include ANY weaponry of such in their training... like BJJ and boxing for example.
    It's not the weaponry I'm questioning, it's the training methods. How you train to fight 1 on 1 or small group vs. small group is very different than how you train to fight a large set piece battle using thousands of men.

    A good example could be the long pole or long spear. When used in a more personal combat situation will have a different flavor than the long spear being used by 500 men in heavy armor and large shields. They will be fighting and moving as a group, the front row responsible for shield work and some short sword and the long spears be used by the 2nd and 3rd rows to extend out from the shields. The whole "style" of use and footwork will be different.

    Now once the formation was broken and the battle was reduce to more one on one fighting then your "martial artists" may actually have an advantage.
    Mike

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Now let me ask you this:

    If I was to share with you a double stick method that 'seemed familiar' to you because of your Escrima experience, but it simply was not within the methods you knew, could you accept that this was Wing Chun Double Stick?? Have you ever seen or heard of the double stick methods of my Sigung? Or my Sifu? probably not.
    (
    Yes, I will. I will always think there's still methods out there that are not yet discovered by many. Honestly, the name is not my main concern. If it's effective then that's all that matters. I'm more concern how can I learn it and if not possible, learn how to deal with it.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    This is where it gets complicated imho, because the popularity and excellence of the Filipino Arts has sort of shunned my lineage into silence because we have a double stick method that has been passed on from my Sigung, and he never studied any Filipino Arts! He was a knife man, and the way we utilize our blades is different than the Filipino way, and this too is reflected in our double stick practices... so why would I take up Escrima? Can you see what I mean?
    (
    That's fair and I understand where you're coming from. You can still cross-train to test it out if it works well outside of it's ways.

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Phew! I will take a breath now!
    :-).

    Thanks for taking the time to respond.

  5. #35
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    In retrospect...there is no such thing as a complete fighting system. Nor is there a such thing as a superior fighting system.

    There are three facts

    1.Some people are naturally talented fighters even with out martial training
    2.Some people will only amount to mediorce fighting ability even with years of training
    3.Some people are more skilled than others no matter what art you know

    If Your WC doesn't work on BJJ, Karate, Boxing, Muay Thai or someone other art. Its not really the art that is better. Its the person skill level your fighting. Those who practice fighting will have more skills at fighting. Those who practice forms, drills, and chi sau will be more skilled at those things.

    Case and Point: Someone you fought who beat the hell out of you. Try and get them to do chi sau or push hands with you. Gurantee you will dominant them at those two things. No matter how skilled they are at fighting.

    The more familiar you are with chi sau or tuishou the better you will be. Someone who has been doing it longer will better than guy who just started learning a year ago...The same is true for fighting. The more you fight, the better you get at it. Some people are just naturally more skilled at fighting than others!


    So when you fight and win remember its because you were more skilled than person you fought and not because WC is superior to what their doing...A good Jeet Kune Do guy who is extremely skilled at fighting can definitely beat any Sifu with Zero Fight experience outside of chi sau!
    The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.

    "Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."

    "Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."

    "Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    It's still nicer to see those unwilling participants of a 'discussion' seem to think that running a 'fulltime school' automatically makes you a Martial Artist!

    Why don't you comment on my post and refer to what I suggest, rather than aim a personal attack my way? So manly of you...



    Wow! A new clique word... 'Full Contact Environments'

    How about putting a long pole in the hands of a full contact fighter and asking them to spar with, say, Phillip Bayer? Or even Alan Orr? How do you think your fighter will get on there?

    Just silly points that really have no place in my head to be honest.

    I do not want to train 'competitively' nowadays, as I am more interested in passing on what I know to be solid Wing Chun skills to the next generations.

    And FWIW I HAVE adopted a mindset from other 'sports'. I was an original Karate Kid, I love athletics, and I love boxing and train my body and have adopted certain traits from my younger competitive days, but I haven't adopted any other fighting 'style' or 'system' because I am very happy with where I am and what I hold.

    A complete system of Martial Art.

    In my own, non-fighting, inexperienced, non-business like opinion of course.
    others have pulled your post apart...i see my point to be honest no offence but you wouldn't get my point of view
    Put a long pole in paul daleys hand and im sure he would most trained sifu including you, the dog brothers showed what happens to people who dont fight but think they know about weapons when they face an aggressive opponent used to taking hits

  7. #37
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    Hopefully this will be my last post on this thread, as I think I have said enough. Some of these negative comments just needed a response!
    Priceless. Youre labeling certain MA's (that arent your flavour) as sports and dont find that negative or offensive to the practitioners? And your calling me negative

    Translate 'Kyokushin' for us all because you are so off the mark it makes me smile... actually this is a perfect example of what I am trying to put across here.

    "Kyokushin kaikan (極真会館) is a style of stand-up, full contact karate, founded in 1964 by Korean-Japanese karate master Masutatsu Oyama"

    In other words, a new creation designed to promote 'sport' competition.
    Gee, he can use Google. Congrats Spencer. But re read it again and TALK to a KK guy and youll see it as way way more than a sport


    Really? I think your response is very offensive! lol!
    Youre such a knob. I respond directly to your ideas (not personal) and you twist it to make it seem im attacking you personally..... something you kick and scream about when it doesnt suit you

    Whatever I have written here is meant to be discussed, no offence is intended dude so try re-reading it all again...
    Ok gotcha, so youre just an idiot and you didnt mean for it to be offensive


    Oh! Did I actually say that?? No. The question I am addressing is what makes a system, or more specifically our Wing Chun system, COMPLETE.
    No, but you still didnt answer my question. You didnt make the debating team at school did you. You used the other arts as references so dont get your panties in a knot if you get picked up on it

    This is not what structured 'form' is. Form isn't FREESTYLE. So unless Jack Dempsey passed on his specific shadow boxing combos and such in a set pattern, you are clutching at straws with this one imho.
    Ahhhh, so by your way of thinking a short form is not as valid as a short form. Incidentally a jab, cross jab is about as systematic as you get. So Kulo isnt valid then??


    Ah! here you crash and burn lol!! And no, this is not what I am saying with regards to the more weapons you have the more complete your system.
    Answer the question, where is the "cut-off" then? 2 weapons seems low in comparison to some styles, or did WC get it "just right" like baby bears porridge?

    Again dude, what the hell are you reading?? I do get worried when people that shout about how great they are seem to not be able to read simple posts. You have totally got the wrong impression I was aiming to put across, so please READ AGAIN!!
    I Read it again and i stand by what i say.
    You literally said that those styles were sports , not martial arts. What the hell are YOU reading?


    Plenty of other Chinese Martial Artists? Really? C'mon, you may as well drop their names...
    I dont fancy having a Google war of martial arts weaponry knowledge with you. Lets just say that you know im right


    Ip Man was a scholar and Martial Artist (according to his family) so I can only presume that he knew exactly what he was doing!! Which is so much more than I can say about others. And FWIW I also hope Wing Chun evolves because that is it's nature. It is also why we are named Wing Chun.
    Scholar? Do tell.

    That gives good insight into you. You think that him being a scholar adds weight to his credibility as a Martial Artist (which you latch onto constantly).

    Youre constantly trying to create some sort of elitism in regards to how people (in your opinion) should approach their martial art. And if they dont have the same mindset they are just doing a "sport"

    Oh, and you dont want it to evolve, it would bring down your house of cards

    But you would know this if you practised the system wouldn't you?
    I "practiced" last night against some "sportsmen" for about an hour, after some incomplete padwork and non-martial art shadow boxing. We then had a discussion about how we wished we were scholars with the ability to use weapons that we arent allowed to carry............

  8. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Are you actually being serious???

    These 'sports' you list are just that. Sport. Martial Sport, if you prefer. All 'designed' or updated in the last century to enable a safe 'competing' platform. Don't confuse them with Martial Arts!!!
    Yes! I'm serious.

    Are you saying "combat MA" is superior than "sport MA"? I don't know how you can "test" your combat skill without using a "safe sport environment".

    You go to

    - gloden glove boxing tournament to test your punching skill.
    - kickboxing tournament to test your kick/punch skill.
    - SC/Judo/wrestling tournament to test your grappling skill.
    - Sanda/Sanshou tournament to test your kick/punch/throw skill.
    - MMA tournament to test your kick/punch/lock/throw/ground skills.
    - short weapon tournament to test your knife/sword skill.
    - long weapon tournament to test your spear/staff/pole skill.

    Without testing your skill against others MA styles, how will you know that you "have it" or you "don't have ut"? Is there another way to "test" your combat skill? Please share your method here?
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-29-2012 at 05:23 PM.

  9. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    Yes! I'm serious.

    Are you saying "combat MA" is superior than "sport MA"? I don't know how you can develpe your combat skill without through a "safe sport environment".
    Ahhh, but your assuming he wants to develop his combat skill arent you

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kevin73 View Post
    Just thought I would ask this question..

    Reading the history of Wing Chun, it was designed to be learned in a very short amount of time and was designed to help a person beat another specific person.

    The "founder" was trained in a southern style of kung fu and then distilled it to be learned in that one year time of hard training. Looking at other southern styles you see many of the same concepts there as well, although not as much time is spent on them in some cases.

    So do you think that Wing Chun, was a sort of "kung fu combatives" that was meat and potatoes of it's parent system of the easy to learn apply techniques, or do you think that it was designed to be a whole comprehensive system.
    Ripley: How many drops for you is this, lieutenant?
    Gorman: Thirty-eight...(pause) Simulated.
    Vasquez: How many combat drops?
    Gorman: Uh, two. Including this one.
    Last edited by trubblman; 03-29-2012 at 04:05 PM.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Ahhh, but your assuming he wants to develop his combat skill arent you
    I assume if he is not talking about "combat" then he must talk about "health", "performance", and "spiritual development".

    - Are you a "perfect" health person?
    - Are you a "perfect" performance person?
    - Are you a "perfect" spiritual person?

    The word "complete" will have no meaning at all. This is why I have to assume that this thread is talking about "combat" and "combat" only.

  12. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    I will offer my definition of 'complete' and see if anyone else can add to my idea. I believe a complete Martial Art must have representation of various areas of practise that help develop us as human beings, not just to fight for fighting sake, but to defend ourselves, our loved ones and the weaker/less healthy members of society. We do this by training people in a number of ways:

    1. Form practise. Solo training to enhance technical understanding and basic foundation movements key to a systems development. Many forms have had individual input, becoming more of a 'stylistic' representation of said person/s. This isn't a bad thing, as long as the system knowledge is not sacrificed and lost.

    2. Interactive practise. Call it sparring if you prefer! But when you train with a partner to develop your skill, this is 'interactive martial play'. It is our Chisau/Looksau/Gorsau and Sansau platform. But only if you remove the 'competitive' ego driven nature most younger students seem to have these days lol!

    3. Equipment practise. Take our Wooden Man as an example, it is unique to our system because of it's scientific design but common in almost all other Chinese Martial Arts as an apparatus that assists in power development. Just like hitting a tree, wall bag, makiwara board or modern boxing pad. Equipment is key to actually feeling contact without injuries.

    4. Weaponry practice. I know it's an old cliche and many may disagree, but without weaponry training you're not really training a 'Martial' Art. We are lucky in Wing Chun that we hold two key weapons that enhance our short and long range fighting skill. One of the only Chinese Systems that has detailed knowedge of both imho using only 2 base weapons rather than the original 18 Lohan designs.

    5. Cultural practice. Whether it be BJJ, Boxing, Muay Thai or Judo every art has it's origins and history and just learning a little about theoriginal culture of any give Martial Art may help join a few dots together. Wing Chun is know to be able to 'talk the fight' due to our basic concepts and if two Sifus meet they have a language and culture they can share, before they even cross hands.
    That's a good list indeed.

    - solo training (polish),
    - partner training (develope),
    - equipment training (enhance),
    - weapon training,
    - cultureal training (not sure this is needed),

    I also like to add

    - tournament experience (test).

    When someone said that someone has great skill, my teacher always said, "I don't know. I have never met that person in tournament."
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-29-2012 at 05:44 PM.

  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    I assume if he is not talking about "combat" then he must talk about "health", "performance", and "spiritual development".

    - Are you a "perfect" health person?
    - Are you a "perfect" performance person?
    - Are you a "perfect" spiritual person?

    The word "complete" will have no meaning at all. This is why I have to assume that this thread is talking about "combat" and "combat" only.
    Well ultimately, IMO , its all about combat. There is other pursuits that enhance health, performance and spirit... yoga would come to mind.
    Without the combat aspect trained and tested its just not a MA.

  14. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Without the combat aspect trained and tested its just not a MA.
    Agree with you 100% there. If this forum is not a "combat" forum, I won't even be here.
    Last edited by YouKnowWho; 03-29-2012 at 06:09 PM.

  15. #45
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    rather than when I was a kid who just wanted to be a better human being.
    Hmmm. No obvious improvement so far. How long before we should see this starting to kick in?
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