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Thread: Was Wing Chun meant to be a complete system?

  1. #46
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    Without testing your skill against others MA styles, how will you know that you "have it" or you "don't have ut"? Is there another way to "test" your combat skill? Please share your method here?
    Yes im interested to hear this answer myself.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i had an old taichi lady talk smack behind my back. i mean comon man, come on. if it was 200 years ago,, mebbe i wouldve smacked her and took all her monehs.
    Originally posted by Bawang
    i am manly and strong. do not insult me cracker.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    the dog brothers showed what happens to people who dont fight but think they know about weapons when they face an aggressive opponent used to taking hits
    yes, they definitely did!

  3. #48
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    Last edited by k gledhill; 03-30-2012 at 08:11 AM.

  4. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    others have pulled your post apart...i see my point to be honest no offence but you wouldn't get my point of view
    Actually, one other and I think Glenda rather enjoys pulling my posts apart, so leave him be

    Quote Originally Posted by Frost View Post
    Put a long pole in paul daleys hand and im sure he would most trained sifu including you, the dog brothers showed what happens to people who dont fight but think they know about weapons when they face an aggressive opponent used to taking hits
    Sorry? Can you please explain how this is possible? You're talking of a competition again aren't you?
    Ti Fei
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  5. #50
    Modern equivalent of a pole / weapon can be found in any bar, a pool cue. You can use it as a BCD split in two, or as a pole technique. All about stabbing strikes....with full body weight and arms unified to a point in space.

    Be warned you may kill people using this stabbing method.



    Just to bring the tone back down here are some sexy soccer girls What league is this, must get cable channel...doh !
    Last edited by k gledhill; 02-11-2013 at 05:15 PM.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Priceless. Youre labeling certain MA's (that arent your flavour) as sports and dont find that negative or offensive to the practitioners? And your calling me negative
    No I don't. Just as I have a high level of respect for track and field athletes and their training methods I consider them to be more elite than I am these days. You just can't help trying to put words in my mouth, but I'm getting used to that.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Gee, he can use Google. Congrats Spencer. But re read it again and TALK to a KK guy and youll see it as way way more than a sport
    Okay I'm busted for using wikipedia, but you should really try to get to know someone better before suggesting who I should talk to. One of my elder kung fu bros was into Kyokushin in a big way and shared quite a few tricks with me too. he was also a power lifter and personal trainer, which helps.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Youre such a knob. I respond directly to your ideas (not personal) and you twist it to make it seem im attacking you personally..... something you kick and scream about when it doesnt suit you
    Where I am from, calling someone a knob is not an endearing way to communicate. It's offensive. Playground behaviour I just aint interested in. But again, I'm getting used to that round here.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Ok gotcha, so youre just an idiot and you didnt mean for it to be offensive
    Pot kettle black?

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Ahhhh, so by your way of thinking a short form is not as valid as a short form. Incidentally a jab, cross jab is about as systematic as you get. So Kulo isnt valid then??
    Again, I am confused. What are you reading?

    There are no forms in Kulo WCK. There are sets. There is a big difference in the approach to training these sets than there is to Wing Chuns first form FME. This is WCK 101 mate!

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Answer the question, where is the "cut-off" then? 2 weapons seems low in comparison to some styles, or did WC get it "just right" like baby bears porridge?
    What weaponry do you practise exactly?

    Not worth discussing if you don't practise any...

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    I Read it again and i stand by what i say.
    You literally said that those styles were sports , not martial arts. What the hell are YOU reading?
    Correct. AND I also said something about these sports actually having a culture relating to their origin, or was that not clear enough for you?

    Anyone who has practised Muay Thai, as an example, will know of Krabi Krabong, no? They will learn more Thai terms than English, no? Have a more Thai approach to training, no? Even learn weaponry, no? This is what I mean by being open to learning about culture.

    And it doesn't only have to be language or weapons! FWIW when I hosted a seminar with Braulio Estima and Roger Gracie they let me into a little 'secret' of theirs. Their training was superb. Their attitude and sportsmanship was superb. Their strength and skill was superb. But do you know what they put it all down to, apart from mat time and good peers???

    Superb food. The 'Gracie Diet' as it has become known. Now, if you have learnt about that from the Gracies, I woudl say you have peeked through their own culture. Does anyone not see what I am saying here?

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    That gives good insight into you. You think that him being a scholar adds weight to his credibility as a Martial Artist (which you latch onto constantly).
    No I don't. Again you misunderstand me.

    As a scholar I mean that he was educated to a general standard in school (at least) and could read and write Chinese. Quite rare in Martial Art circles in those days. This simply means when he sat down and created and wrote his curriculums he could plan each individuals progression and monitor the more commercial type students.

    You may do the same today, creating Individual Training Plans and such, but back in HK during the 1950's this was simply unheard of because most other commercial schools just taught the same stuff designed to cater for larger numbers. Obviously, this is the result of some research by myself into the culture of our Wing Chun system.

    Something I can see you have had little time for, which is a shame considering how you constantly bang on about how much better your training is...

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    Youre constantly trying to create some sort of elitism in regards to how people (in your opinion) should approach their martial art.
    So what yu are saying is that I am the same as almost every other person who posts here??

    But at least I am proud of my own Wing Chun learning, as everyone else should be of theirs because we have inherited something I believe to be very special. And yes, if you take that as me saying Wing Chun is 'elite' then so be it.

    Quote Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
    I "practiced" last night against some "sportsmen" for about an hour, after some incomplete padwork and non-martial art shadow boxing. We then had a discussion about how we wished we were scholars with the ability to use weapons that we arent allowed to carry............
    Good for you. I did too, but I can't call our training very 'sporty' because we have absolutely no interest in competing against eachother to win. And I personally think this is where you misunderstand me the most.

    Sport Martial Art is about training to win in competitions.

    Martial Art itself has many ways to train without ever stepping into a competition.

    Neither way is superior. I firmly believe that. But you do not imho. You have the suffering of ego and that is just too bad loser...
    Last edited by LoneTiger108; 03-30-2012 at 09:17 AM.
    Ti Fei
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  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by YouKnowWho View Post
    That's a good list indeed.

    - solo training (polish),
    - partner training (develope),
    - equipment training (enhance),
    - weapon training,
    - cultureal training (not sure this is needed),

    I also like to add

    - tournament experience (test).

    When someone said that someone has great skill, my teacher always said, "I don't know. I have never met that person in tournament."
    Okay, I more than most understand some peoples avoidance of learning about others culture but we are Chines Martial Arts practitioners and I had a very traditional Sifu. Without showing interest, he would not teach you. End of.

    As for tournaments, I have just never seen anything that is suitable for the way I personally practise Wing Chun. Not that I would compete anyhow nowadays because I don't believe that's the right image of Martial Arts I want to project to my own children.

    And I'm pretty small and weak too, which doesn't help
    Ti Fei
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  8. #53
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    Speaking generally to the thread topic... Reality faces us with many challenges. It is up each individual to make what they can do work. If Wing Chun is a system, then by that literal description it is "complete". However, that does not mean it is all inclusive.

    Our Solar System is indeed a system but considering it doesn't have every known object within the universe inside of it, does that mean it is not a complete system? Well then let's add neutron stars, black holes, white dwarfs, and whatever else our solar system doesn't have until it is "complete". Really? It is a solar system, not a universe system.

    Wing Chun has an intentional design and purpose, but I highly doubt it is a system to represent ALL combat systems/styles/arts. It is another system of combat among many, guided by a philosophy and a science grounded upon the laws/principles of nature. It is a system consisting of many sub systems, just as each object within this solar system is a part of many smaller systems, all working in harmony within the whole of the Solar System.

    If your Sifu hasn't told you how the WC you are being taught is supposed to be used and the psychology behind it, see if you can find those answers before a final conclusion is made on your assessment. If you fail using Wing Chun does that mean Wing Chun is the problem, or you? If you are not honest about your failures then you are not taking accountability either. Blaming the art, your Sifu, the culture, supposed secrets, or anything else but yourself, is a false perspective and mischaracterization in my opinion. Failure and Success always comes down to you.

    If Wing Chun is based on principles, concepts, and theories, should those standards be replaced by your personal limitations - "do what works for you!" - or is the reality that you are not at the competency level of Wing Chun's scientific standard? My failures and achievements are my own. The goal is to make the Wing Chun you learn work against real and personal challenges, through its intended design and purpose, and that has to be at the forefront of your vision. If you haven't yet had that defined, I'd suggest that's one more thing to add on your "to do" list.

    I read a lot of "do what works for you!" comments on this forum. Sorry to say, but the way I see it is Wing Chun isn't about "you". You can make it about yourself, but I can almost guarantee you will hit a dead end. What I connect with regarding Wing Chun is that lends itself so well to "Principle over Personality". If you want personality, stick to Facebook, the internet, your smart phones, your game systems, anything else that enhances and fulfills the need for ego gratification. Wing Chun was nor is designed for that purpose.

    Dig deeper, past techniques, past labels and brands. If the science behind the art your Sifu is teaching [just/still] isn't resonating with you, then maybe it isn't for you OR maybe you should seek out a Sifu that can connect with how you learn. Wing Chun isn't for everybody, but least you were honest in your approach.
    Last edited by Savi; 03-30-2012 at 09:50 AM.
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  9. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    Actually, one other and I think Glenda rather enjoys pulling my posts apart, so leave him be



    Sorry? Can you please explain how this is possible? You're talking of a competition again aren't you?
    nope im talking about being used to facing an opponent looking to do you serious harm, with or without a weapon...i know who my money would be on and its not the guy whose claim to fame is doing lion dances and weapons demos at seni

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by LoneTiger108 View Post
    As for tournaments, I have just never seen anything that is suitable for the way I personally practise Wing Chun.
    You can also try long range weapon tournament to test your pole (staff) skill against other pole/staff/spear guys. 1 point to the arms and legs, 2 points to the rest of the body.

    TCMA is like the chess game. You just can't play chess "solo". The fun is in the "playing".

  11. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by JPinAZ View Post
    Are you saying none of WC's concepts/principles work on the ground?
    I actually have had a high level of interest in this question and ensuing answers. I have investigated it over about the last 5 years. While your statement is too blanket and too absolute for me to say "yes", IMO there are a different set of fundamentals on the ground than stand up striking. The fish out of water statement really does apply. If you are not familiear with those fundamentals, then in my experience you "could" do the right thing on the ground, however, it's equally likely you could do the exact wrong thing on the ground, ensuing in your giving your opponent exactly what they need to finish the fight.

    Let me ask a question back at you and repeat my question from the last post. Do you feel that WC's concepts and principles work on the ground without learning the fundamentals I'm speaking of and without practicing them?

    Also, can you say you understand all of WCK's fighting ideas to answer?
    No, which was why I asked you the question of what WCK's answer was to the following scenarios: 1) mount 2) back mount. Do you understand those terms enough to answer?

    My whole point was about perspective of those asking the question and how they define the words 'complete' and 'system', as well as of those that answer. It's not a simple question because too many people view the words 'complete' and 'system' so differently.

    FWIW, I was careful to say "or that it lacks a ground game as viewed from a BJJ perspective." for a reason. I knew this would come up and there was a strong chance someone would say "Well, WCK doesn't have a ground game (like BJJ), so it's incomplete" No, WCK does not train a ground game like BJJ does, and I'm not arguing it does. We both know that would be silly and I never intended to even imply it.
    In my viewpoint the underlying question here is whether or not preventing entry into your space standing on your feet from a grappler's approach - i.e. takedown defenses is enough to label a system "complete". Is that a workable approach and can you do that? Sure. Can you 100% of the time avoid going to the ground? I am not so sure. Consider terrain constraints such as ice or a backstop. Consider getting knocked down by a sucker punch and mounted. So what degree of "complete" are we talking here?

  12. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Savi View Post
    Speaking generally to the thread topic... Reality faces us with many challenges. It is up each individual to make what they can do work. If Wing Chun is a system, then by that literal description it is "complete". However, that does not mean it is all inclusive.
    I would agree with this paragraph, and also extend the idea that all inclusive means that a system has to specialize in something, and thus has strengths and weaknesses as a system.

    Some of this is just a difference in language. For example, consider dating. You meet the girl that has everything you want in a spouse and are to the point you are considering proposing. You might describe her as "the complete package". Is she perfect? No, but neither are you. But she does have everything you are looking for.

    If you fail using Wing Chun does that mean Wing Chun is the problem, or you?
    As a pragmatist, I tend to look to my own training practices as the problem, and modify them until I see success.

  13. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    I actually have had a high level of interest in this question and ensuing answers. I have investigated it over about the last 5 years. While your statement is too blanket and too absolute for me to say "yes", IMO there are a different set of fundamentals on the ground than stand up striking. The fish out of water statement really does apply. If you are not familiear with those fundamentals, then in my experience you "could" do the right thing on the ground, however, it's equally likely you could do the exact wrong thing on the ground, ensuing in your giving your opponent exactly what they need to finish the fight.?
    I agree 100%

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    Let me ask a question back at you and repeat my question from the last post. Do you feel that WC's concepts and principles work on the ground without learning the fundamentals I'm speaking of and without practicing them.
    Not the same way, and they all do not apply. But I would agree if you are saying having a good understanding and some experience of the ground game from another art's perspective is paramount in being able to deal with it. Otherwise it's just fantasy fu

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    No, which was why I asked you the question of what WCK's answer was to the following scenarios: 1) mount 2) back mount. Do you understand those terms enough to answer?
    Sure, I understand them perfectly and IMO back mount is the work place I want to be caught in

    Quote Originally Posted by Wayfaring View Post
    In my viewpoint the underlying question here is whether or not preventing entry into your space standing on your feet from a grappler's approach - i.e. takedown defenses is enough to label a system "complete". Is that a workable approach and can you do that? Sure. Can you 100% of the time avoid going to the ground? I am not so sure. Consider terrain constraints such as ice or a backstop. Consider getting knocked down by a sucker punch and mounted. So what degree of "complete" are we talking here?
    HFY does have take down defenses (kius sau training covers this pretty well indepth supported with things like with CL, box and gate theory concepts, gravity , leverage, etc), but this is different than 'counter grappling' as a grappler would impy if that makes sense. And I am not foolish enough to think I can deny everyone from getting in my space and/or taking me down - but that is the goal in theory

    And if I get taken down, I agree, I better have a decent understanding of what can happen there if I have any decent chance of safely getting back up.

    When I say complete, I am speaking of of concepts, as well as understanding principles that are universal vs. just what's in my tool box if this makes sense? Sprawl defence against a takedown works great, but imo it breaks even the basic WCK ideas of centerline, and is more of a counter grappling. So while it works, and to a high degree, IMO it's not really WCK if it breaks the basic ideas on centerline and gravity. So, just adding it to your toolbox doesn't make it WCK, and not having it doesn't mean WCK is incomplete either. Make sense?
    Last edited by JPinAZ; 03-30-2012 at 05:16 PM.
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  14. #59
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    No I don't. Just as I have a high level of respect for track and field athletes and their training methods I consider them to be more elite than I am these days. You just can't help trying to put words in my mouth, but I'm getting used to that.
    How did i put words in your mouth? You just agreed with what i said about you!


    Okay I'm busted for using wikipedia, but you should really try to get to know someone better before suggesting who I should talk to. One of my elder kung fu bros was into Kyokushin in a big way and shared quite a few tricks with me too. he was also a power lifter and personal trainer, which helps.
    So your mate agrees with you that KK isnt an art? My KK friend ( i have one as well) who's been to Japan to train and fight in the world titles, would disagree with you instantly. Its very much an art to him


    Where I am from, calling someone a knob is not an endearing way to communicate. It's offensive. Playground behaviour I just aint interested in. But again, I'm getting used to that round here.
    Oh get over yourself Spencer, offending eachother is what we do best


    Again, I am confused. What are you reading?

    There are no forms in Kulo WCK. There are sets. There is a big difference in the approach to training these sets than there is to Wing Chuns first form FME. This is WCK 101 mate!
    That was my point. Kulo only has sets, not forms... much like boxers shadow box and do drills on their own.
    So (again, read carefully) are you saying that Kulo isnt a MA because it doesnt do forms?

    What weaponry do you practise exactly?

    Not worth discussing if you don't practise an
    y...

    Ive done a bit of escrima and thats it, so that a no.

    So (once again by your logic) as you dont fight/spar, then you shouldnt discuss anything to do with actual combat?


    Correct. AND I also said something about these sports actually having a culture relating to their origin, or was that not clear enough for you?
    But not a culture that supports that style being an "art"

    Anyone who has practised Muay Thai, as an example, will know of Krabi Krabong, no?
    No, why would they? They are totally separate arts

    They will learn more Thai terms than English, no? Have a more Thai approach to training, no? Even learn weaponry, no? This is what I mean by being open to learning about culture.
    All maybes.

    And it doesn't only have to be language or weapons! FWIW when I hosted a seminar with Braulio Estima and Roger Gracie they let me into a little 'secret' of theirs. Their training was superb. Their attitude and sportsmanship was superb. Their strength and skill was superb. But do you know what they put it all down to, apart from mat time and good peers???

    Superb food. The 'Gracie Diet' as it has become known. Now, if you have learnt about that from the Gracies, I woudl say you have peeked through their own culture. Does anyone not see what I am saying here?
    Youre saying that these guys have worked out that good healthy food helps with their training....... who would have thought!!


    No I don't. Again you misunderstand me.

    As a scholar I mean that he was educated to a general standard in school (at least) and could read and write Chinese. Quite rare in Martial Art circles in those days. This simply means when he sat down and created and wrote his curriculums he could plan each individuals progression and monitor the more commercial type students.

    You may do the same today, creating Individual Training Plans and such, but back in HK during the 1950's this was simply unheard of because most other commercial schools just taught the same stuff designed to cater for larger numbers. Obviously, this is the result of some research by myself into the
    culture
    of our Wing Chun system.
    So whats so special about that? And your sweeping generalisations of HK schools at the time shows laziness in you "research"

    Something I can see you have had little time for, which is a shame considering how you constantly bang on about how much better your training is...
    Actually, i have studied the influx of WC practitioners into Australia (bit of a hobby for me at one stage) and would seek out other WC schools to meet and train with them. Id comfortably hold my own about WC's "history' in Australia with most people. So, yes i have done my work in that regards.
    And here's a challenge, find one instance where i have said that my training is better than yours or anyone else's?

    My issue with you are these pseudo intellectual opinions about any MA that competively fights, particularly that they are sports and not Martial Arts.


    But at least I am proud of my own Wing Chun learning, as everyone else should be of theirs because we have inherited something I believe to be very special. And yes, if you take that as me saying Wing Chun is 'elite' then so be it.
    Pride in a chosen field is fine, but dont try to lifts its standing by belittling other styles.
    Incidentally, when i spar i often put my WC into use and (proudly) tell the other guy that he's just been WC'd. So yes, im proud of my previous style

    Good for you. I did too, but I can't call our training very 'sporty' because we have absolutely no interest in competing against eachother to win. And I personally think this is where you misunderstand me the most.
    I have no problem with what you do, go for your life, enjoy yourself. In fact ive even defended you on occasion from Grahams rants, but as a guy who now does MT, rich in tradition and culture, i find it offensive that you label it a "sport".. its much more than that as are BJJ, KK etc

    Sport Martial Art is about training to win in competitions.
    Not always, im 46 Spencer, do you think im training for a fighting career?

    Martial Art itself has many ways to train without ever stepping into a competition.
    I agree totally, but if a MA also has a sporting component that doesnt mean its no longer a martial art

    Neither way is superior. I firmly believe that. But you do not imho. You have the suffering of ego and that is just too bad loser... :
    Where have i said that certain ways are superior-inferior?

  15. #60
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    Answers to the original question:

    1. I train both WC and BJJ. I believe the intersection of the Venn diagram to be pretty small.

    2. I don't care.
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