Can Wing Chun end a fight?

[Vajramusti]

Wing Chun's blessing is it's curse, it is too structurally attached to upright boxing to always follow to the end. Chasing and sticking for the trip down is perilous,taxonomy of energy changing..

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Depends on whose wing chun

joy chaudhuri

[Yoshiyahu]

Wing Chun's blessing is it's curse, it is too structurally attached to upright boxing to always follow to the end. Chasing and sticking for the trip down is perilous,taxonomy of energy changing..

What you said is a whole lotta nothing you know that right?

[Happy Tiger]

I love it!!! O.K. What I'm saying is in general wing chun is up heavy. When the fight hits the floor without a clear dominant figure,everything changes. I certainly hope there's VT that spends a great deal of time on the ground cause one on one that's where it's likely to end up. I know many VT people that are turtles when upturned.

[Matt_WCK]

I love it!!! O.K. What I'm saying is in general wing chun is up heavy. When the fight hits the floor without a clear dominant figure,everything changes. I certainly hope there's VT that spends a great deal of time on the ground cause one on one that's where it's likely to end up. I know many VT people that are turtles when upturned.

Yes - but this is generally down to a lack of experience of the WCK practitioner and not because the system is lacking. The beauty of Wing Chun is in it's simplicity - why spend ages learning to fight upright, then another age learning to fight differently on the ground? If you look at the WCK structure, you could fight flat against a wall or flat on the floor and it shouldn't change the way you operate - in fact, stamp kicks work brilliantly while on the floor and I have taught the ground aspect of WCK. Yes, the ground aspect is nowhere near as detailed as other arts but there is sufficient material there to fight on the ground with the intention being to finish quickly and get back up again. An elbow in the throat will drop someone whether you're stood up or flat on the floor!

Giving it a go is the key, play with the system and wake it work for you in whatever situation you find.

I have 'played' with experienced Jujitsu guys (black and dan grades) and they have had a great deal of difficulty obtaining a submission (while leaving themselves open to many many strikes and kicks - they certainly looked at Wing Chun as a different beast after that) - and anyway, because we don't (generally) do sport fighting, why not bite, spit and claw your opponent (maybe not in the kwoon though...)?

The conceptual nature of the system allows a great deal of interpretation - take weapons; just because most WCK only teach an 8-10 foot pole and two short swords does not mean that they are the only weapons you can use and still use WCK. The two weapons provide a conceptual base to fighting with long and short weapons, sharp and blunt weapons, single and double weapons... when you look at it from that aspect, what weapon CAN'T you pick up and still use WCK? (OK, throwing weapons maybe but some lineages still teach darts as another weapon)

Take a similar approach to open hand fighting and you'll be hard pressed to find an environment where you CAN'T use WCK.

[LFJ]

Good post Matt!

A skilled WCK fighter should be able to use their art on the ground or any position/situation, without having to cross-train in a grappling art. Not that cross-training is not a good idea, but WCK is adaptable to whatever circumstances. If cross-training is necessary to fill a gap, rather than experience other arts, it's likely that the practitioner doesn't have enough understanding of WCK to use it on the ground yet, hence the gap.

[LoneTiger108]

I love it!!! O.K. What I'm saying is in general wing chun is up heavy.

A bit of a massive generalization. Wing Chun is designed to be perfectly balanced both with the hands and feet, and totally personalized to each individuals body shape, reach, height etc so if you haven't yet experienced this with Wing Chun you have yet to really feel the benefits of everything that has been left for us imho!

The conceptual nature of the system allows a great deal of interpretation - take weapons; just because most WCK only teach an 8-10 foot pole and two short swords does not mean that they are the only weapons you can use and still use WCK. The two weapons provide a conceptual base to fighting with long and short weapons, sharp and blunt weapons, single and double weapons... when you look at it from that aspect, what weapon CAN'T you pick up and still use WCK? (OK, throwing weapons maybe but some lineages still teach darts as another weapon)

Take a similar approach to open hand fighting and you'll be hard pressed to find an environment where you CAN'T use WCK.

very well put!

I would add that if you started your Wing Chun back in the earlier days (which I have only heard stories about lol!) you may have had some training where you are pressed with your back up against a wall, or forced into the corner of the gwoon to learn how to defend yourself without taking a step backwards. Quite big with people like Sifu Simon Lau here in the UK!

I would suggest that if you're comfortable with that then why wouldn't you be comfortable on the floor?? Obviously it's never a recommended strategy, but it is still something a Wing Chun student should be aware of. But in all honesty, why do we need to take someone to the floor to finish a fight?? Personally never been a fan of G&P coz it goes against my nice nature lol!

[wingchunIan]

Yes - but this is generally down to a lack of experience of the WCK practitioner and not because the system is lacking. The beauty of Wing Chun is in it's simplicity - why spend ages learning to fight upright, then another age learning to fight differently on the ground? If you look at the WCK structure, you could fight flat against a wall or flat on the floor and it shouldn't change the way you operate - in fact, stamp kicks work brilliantly while on the floor and I have taught the ground aspect of WCK. Yes, the ground aspect is nowhere near as detailed as other arts but there is sufficient material there to fight on the ground with the intention being to finish quickly and get back up again. An elbow in the throat will drop someone whether you're stood up or flat on the floor!

Giving it a go is the key, play with the system and wake it work for you in whatever situation you find.

I have 'played' with experienced Jujitsu guys (black and dan grades) and they have had a great deal of difficulty obtaining a submission (while leaving themselves open to many many strikes and kicks - they certainly looked at Wing Chun as a different beast after that) - and anyway, because we don't (generally) do sport fighting, why not bite, spit and claw your opponent (maybe not in the kwoon though...)?

The conceptual nature of the system allows a great deal of interpretation - take weapons; just because most WCK only teach an 8-10 foot pole and two short swords does not mean that they are the only weapons you can use and still use WCK. The two weapons provide a conceptual base to fighting with long and short weapons, sharp and blunt weapons, single and double weapons... when you look at it from that aspect, what weapon CAN'T you pick up and still use WCK? (OK, throwing weapons maybe but some lineages still teach darts as another weapon)

Take a similar approach to open hand fighting and you'll be hard pressed to find an environment where you CAN'T use WCK.

Couldn't have put it better myself

[Happy Tiger]

These responses give me hope for the future.Either standing or on the ground, there is no separation. Many actually fear the ground and when fustigated can panic and make the big mistake. Dedicated grapplers do not mind recieving blows to secure a shoot. In addition, the whole idea of mun sao and arm touching can be trouble with the right foil. sifu Paul Vunak had lots to say on that subject. I love VT and I can see, I still have more to learn. Glad to see people actually share experience and not just site presidence or rehash the ideal.

[Wayfaring]

Yes - but this is generally down to a lack of experience of the WCK practitioner and not because the system is lacking.

No, this is because WCK doesn't address ground fundamentals.

The beauty of Wing Chun is in it's simplicity - why spend ages learning to fight upright, then another age learning to fight differently on the ground?

So that you don't have a huge hole in your game when you are on the ground.

If you look at the WCK structure, you could fight flat against a wall or flat on the floor and it shouldn't change the way you operate - in fact, stamp kicks work brilliantly while on the floor and I have taught the ground aspect of WCK. Yes, the ground aspect is nowhere near as detailed as other arts but there is sufficient material there to fight on the ground with the intention being to finish quickly and get back up again. An elbow in the throat will drop someone whether you're stood up or flat on the floor!

This paragraph is extremely delusional. No, you can't fight on the ground the same way you fight flat against a wall (not that WCK people practice fighting flat against a wall either). "Stamp kicks" will not work "brilliantly" on the ground unless you are applying them in a specific fashion combined with other fundamental ground skills.

No, there is absolutely not enough material there to fight on the ground regardless of what your intention is. If you have no ground skills I can hold you on the ground and you can't get up regardless of your intention.

And no, an elbow in the throat will not drop someone wither you're up or on the floor. Here's a typical experiment I've seen play out numerous times. An experienced ground practitioner holds mount. Guy on bottom tries to elbow him in throat and get up. Guy on top punches. Guy on bottom quits within 15 seconds.

Giving it a go is the key, play with the system and wake it work for you in whatever situation you find.

No it's not the key. You can't learn WCK by "giving it a go", neither can you learn ground fundamentals and skills.

I have 'played' with experienced Jujitsu guys (black and dan grades) and they have had a great deal of difficulty obtaining a submission (while leaving themselves open to many many strikes and kicks - they certainly looked at Wing Chun as a different beast after that) - and anyway, because we don't (generally) do sport fighting, why not bite, spit and claw your opponent (maybe not in the kwoon though...)?

There is a world of difference between "experienced Jujitsu" guys - meaning japanese jujitsu (black and dan grades) and a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt. Most of your MMA schools train grappling where striking is incorporated, and will roll with you with gloves and punches. They certainly won't "look at WCK as a different beast" if you go in there and show off your noob ground skills while trying to strike them. In fact, spazzing out on them in that fashion will most likely get you hurt. You also wouldn't be able to pull off that garbage against a real BJJ black belt. Go look up "Gracie Challenge" on YouTube for video examples.

The sport fighting vs. bite, spit, claw, etc. is a tired argument. See my above experiement. The problem biting, spitting, clawing, etc. from under mount is gravity - the fact the guy on top can do the same and worse and has skills to hold you down. Also, when you're hand reaches out to claw, your face is unprotected from a punch from above with gravity. Yes, I've seen this experiment play out as well.

The conceptual nature of the system allows a great deal of interpretation - take weapons; just because most WCK only teach an 8-10 foot pole and two short swords does not mean that they are the only weapons you can use and still use WCK. The two weapons provide a conceptual base to fighting with long and short weapons, sharp and blunt weapons, single and double weapons... when you look at it from that aspect, what weapon CAN'T you pick up and still use WCK? (OK, throwing weapons maybe but some lineages still teach darts as another weapon)

The conceptual nature of the system allows for delusional people to think that they have skills in areas they haven't working on developing. This is not only delusional, but very dangerous from a self-defense perspective.

[TenTigers]

There is nothing lacking in WCK, as a stand-up striking system, which is what it was designed as. However, since now there are a lot of people including groundfighting in their training, if you want to be a complete fighter, you need to address this, and cross train.
The invention of the screw did not negate the effectiveness of the hammer.
But no carpenter would ever claim that the hammer can be used to drive screws.
You guys are arguing a point that does not need to be argued.

[Sean66]

Very good post, Wayfaring.
I agree 100%!

[Happy Tiger]

I like this thread, it's juicy. I'll tell ya one thing in 8 years of formal VT training I haven't even been in a kwoon that had a mat in it. I would like to hear from the internal players about internal structure on the ground. Horizontal SNT any one? On a side note, if you really are a stand up fighter, one of the best single things to train is IMHO the 'sprawl' I've wondered if that is what's meant by the touch your toes clearing move at the end of biu jie

[k gledhill]

No, this is because WCK doesn't address ground fundamentals.

So that you don't have a huge hole in your game when you are on the ground.

This paragraph is extremely delusional. No, you can't fight on the ground the same way you fight flat against a wall (not that WCK people practice fighting flat against a wall either). "Stamp kicks" will not work "brilliantly" on the ground unless you are applying them in a specific fashion combined with other fundamental ground skills.

No, there is absolutely not enough material there to fight on the ground regardless of what your intention is. If you have no ground skills I can hold you on the ground and you can't get up regardless of your intention.

And no, an elbow in the throat will not drop someone wither you're up or on the floor. Here's a typical experiment I've seen play out numerous times. An experienced ground practitioner holds mount. Guy on bottom tries to elbow him in throat and get up. Guy on top punches. Guy on bottom quits within 15 seconds.

No it's not the key. You can't learn WCK by "giving it a go", neither can you learn ground fundamentals and skills.

There is a world of difference between "experienced Jujitsu" guys - meaning japanese jujitsu (black and dan grades) and a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt. Most of your MMA schools train grappling where striking is incorporated, and will roll with you with gloves and punches. They certainly won't "look at WCK as a different beast" if you go in there and show off your noob ground skills while trying to strike them. In fact, spazzing out on them in that fashion will most likely get you hurt. You also wouldn't be able to pull off that garbage against a real BJJ black belt. Go look up "Gracie Challenge" on YouTube for video examples.

The sport fighting vs. bite, spit, claw, etc. is a tired argument. See my above experiement. The problem biting, spitting, clawing, etc. from under mount is gravity - the fact the guy on top can do the same and worse and has skills to hold you down. Also, when you're hand reaches out to claw, your face is unprotected from a punch from above with gravity. Yes, I've seen this experiment play out as well.

The conceptual nature of the system allows for delusional people to think that they have skills in areas they haven't working on developing. This is not only delusional, but very dangerous from a self-defense perspective.

I am with wayfaring too.

[LoneTiger108]

I like this thread, it's juicy. I'll tell ya one thing in 8 years of formal VT training I haven't even been in a kwoon that had a mat in it.

How did you practise takedowns? As in Wing Chun takedowns?

I hear what Wayfaring is saying and I agree with most of it if your Wing Chun training hasn't included any, what we called, floorwork. My Sifu always had mats, still does, and he used to say that good floorwork builds great all over body strength and this is truly evident in good BJJ players. They're tuff as nails!

So we rolled and practised varied ways to 'hit the floor', not just to be able to be taken down in demos and such but to be able to escape and get back on your feet asap because ultimately that's where we want to be.

It's like me asking all the Wing Chun guys here if they have practised kneeling methods? If not, your follow up to a good takedown will be less sucessful. Good Wing Chun has many things that people may not even see if they're simply passing through so you can imagine how different things get when people start teaching Wing Chun after only ever passing through.

[Happy Tiger]

How did you practise takedowns? As in Wing Chun takedowns?

I hear what Wayfaring is saying and I agree with most of it if your Wing Chun training hasn't included any, what we called, floorwork. My Sifu always had mats, still does, and he used to say that good floorwork builds great all over body strength and this is truly evident in good BJJ players. They're tuff as nails!

So we rolled and practised varied ways to 'hit the floor', not just to be able to be taken down in demos and such but to be able to escape and get back on your feet asap because ultimately that's where we want to be.

It's like me asking all the Wing Chun guys here if they have practised kneeling methods? If not, your follow up to a good takedown will be less sucessful. Good Wing Chun has many things that people may not even see if they're simply passing through so you can imagine how different things get when people start teaching Wing Chun after only ever passing through.

In the sigong Wong Shun Leung years, we just slapped the cold cold floor. With my background in Hapkido it was no trouble for me having slapped tatami for many years. I am intrigued by your house (Lee Shing,yes?) For many reasons. Glad to hear you train on the ground some.