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Originally Posted by m1k3
@m1k3: I was being sarcastic with that statement in that a lot of people bring up that video link when showing what wing chun can do with proper structure yet they bash sifu alan orr's wing chun for not looking like wing chun...seems funny to me.
@WC1277: Thanks for the assist I liked your explaination would like to know if you can apply this to toh ma or biu ma stance and if twisting your hips in toh ma or biu ma to generate power contradicts wing chun principles?
If we train only to defeat fools then we're not much better.
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Ahhhh, makes sense. I am a fan of Sifu Alan as well. My sarcasm detector must need adjusting again. Stupid thing.
Mike
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The pole Bue ma and Tou ma movements are more jamming spring motions where the navel still has the crunching feeling. You could relate it to the motions in Chum Kiu where you extend your arm out to the side and come back to center pulling with your elbow first and then punching out. That motion of the elbow sinking and then pushing out into the punch is the same generation of power essentially.
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I don't really see a momentary leading shoulder as a problem, personally. Better that than hit like a cream puff.Question 1: How do you rotate your hips for power without ending with one of your shoulders leading?
From really close range, use an upward angle and srive with your legs as if doing a jump squat (without leaving the ground). Best/only way to get headbutt power.Question 2: How do you generate power for your strikes with your legs from close eange?
I could care less. If you aren't generating power in your strikes using Wing Chun principles, get rid of the principles.twisting your hips in toh ma or biu ma to generate power contradicts wing chun principles?
To answer your original question, I've been knocked out in Wing Chun sparring and I've seen others knocked out as well.
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I think I detect some misconceptions. Wing Chun has several stance postures. One is with a slight side lead, both hand and foot to the lead side. The square on is actually done with Sil Lim form, but seldom in actual fighting I don't believe.
Generating power requires you look at the mechanics of the action. When we strike out and hit something, there is a reaction. Your body and weight tend to want to go in the oposite direction on impact. For this reason most fighters will try to put forward motion into the stoke to help counter that reaction and get more umph into the stroke. We do not do that, or shouldn't have to do that. Our stance, alignment, structure, is like a chair under the door knob thing. It prevents the door from opening. Our structure within the stance acts the same way and gives us that stability we need to prevent the reaction on impact. More of our thrust goes into the stroke at impact because less is allowed to go the oposite direction. The stronger you are, and the harder you can punch, then the more effective it will be. When we strike, we use the same qi that a karate man uses. At the very instant of impact we exhale forcefully, making the abdomen constrict, which in turn generates more power for an instant.
When we wind up and make a long stroke to hit, it is slowing down considerably by the time it makes contact, and it is only as strong as the wrist. If the wrist folds or turns under the stroke you lose considerable power. You can even injure the wrist. You can generate as much speed in the stroke and put as much power behind it as you can by drawing back and firing. And with proper structure you can get most of that power into the stroke, faster and more accurately than just drawing back and throwing fists. And to top that off, I don't just throw punches at the head, but will actually throw them at target areas so that if they connect, they cause more pain or have a greater effect.
Well, that is how I do it anyway. And I can hit really hard.
Jackie Lee
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MrQuickstep , do you practice wing chun ? And to alot of people they like the art because it works for them . While some people don ' t like wing chun , because it does ' nt work for them , what about you , do you like wing chun ? I know a story of this WC sifu who wore boxing gloves , because he was going to fight 2 - guys , and this incident was in hawaii . He fought this 2 guys all individually , instead of knocking them out , he bruised their faces . But this sifu sadly died 2 years ago from diabetes . I saw this video clip where this black guy ( not to be racial ) , wanted to enter those K - 1 MMA fights , the promoter had to chase him out because he wanted to fight wing chun instead of muay thai . So he walked out , and I thought that MMA was for real , it seems that maybe they could ' nt handle WC .
MrQuickstep , the only way to find out how good wing chun is go and try fighting a wing chun man ? That should answer your questions .
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Thanks for the reply lance, Firstly I did practice wing chun off and on for some years finally decided to start back, I don't have a teacher right now but there aren't many quality teachers in my home country at this time so I'm concentrating on my basics...To me I'm looking to make wing chun work for me against anyone in any art at anytime I don't care what school anyone's from or what style, I must win, I must survive.
As off late I'm thinking how best to stick to the concepts and yet be realistic?, my only answer is to leave out all the bs.
If we train only to defeat fools then we're not much better.
Wing Chun Fighter
MrQuickStepDepending on what branch of WC you do there are various ways to generate power!
In Yoshiyahu's Wing Chun there are five basic ways we generate power with a hand strike!
1.The Curl (structure and stance)
2. The Breath (chi)
3. The waist and hips (jing)
4. Torque or turning power (chum kiu)
5. Stepping of moving force (chum kiu)
In Yoshiyahu's Kungfu you start off early combining all five even before you learn Sil Lim Tao. There is a San Sik that actually trains the various structures so you can develop power needed to hurt your opponent...You can combine all five components to maximize power or combine a few or just one.
Chor Ma is where you generate power while turning. In my Wing Chun we also combine Chor Ma with Toh Mah and Biu Ma...
Toh Ma which is merely chasing horse is use not only to bridge the gap but to also maintain connection or stick. Your opponent is not going to stay there and slug it out with you. So you chase his horse as he tries to evade. Toh Ma is also use to jam space and to overwhelm your opponent. If your opponent is still over come him with movement. So you can use Toh Ma in conjunction with the other four components to generate alot of power to knock him. But Toh Ma is a quicker movement that allows you to rapidly step in your opponent.
Biu ma combined with Turning horse or Toh Ma is very powerful. You can use it to bridge the gap of course. I particularly don't like using it because its less stable than Toh Ma. Also Biu ma is more of dash, shoot or exploding movement that allows you to generate maximum power with your structure in one shot. The combination technique we call Rotating moving Punch. When you practice the technique in a side horse stance.
Biu ma is more powerful than Toh Ma when a punch is added. But Toh ma is faster than Biu ma. Also in my WC we have different punches other than just merely chain punch...We have parallel punch which is slower than a chain punch but more powerful and we have the meridan front punch which is more powerful than chainpunching but it is slower. So with more power comes less speed. But in real fighting the difference in speed with correct adaption is slight. Because you will set your opponent up for the strike. I will say the degree is speed of each technique can be compared to a jab, hook or overhead hammer punch. One is faster than other so some techniques will be used sparingly an others will be use primarly.
KNOCKING SOMEONE OUT WITH WING CHUN: Again it depends on placement and timing and power. With the right amount of power when you have a clear opening you can knock someone out using WC. The key is aggression staying up on your opponent. Your mentality should be to knock them out to render them unable to fight. As for Chin na, or or breaking a limb or something...That shouldn't be your main objective. Imma get his arm an break it..No, you will fail. Think in shapes and forms when you fight not details. If an opportunity appears to where you can get a clean break take it...but if you gotta plan it out or think about it or second guess your self your dead.
You said once you bridge the gap what else can you do. Cho ma, Jut Da Pak Da are very useful. Jut Sau can utilize your opponent energy against them. Use their body weight by jerking them off their posistion while stepping into them striking...Also Who says you can't Biu Ma once you have bridge the gap. Why not biu ma inside your opponents door. its far more useful than outside. If you get a clean opening to strike why not Biu Ma with a forceful fist. Why not follow it up with concussive strikes behind it.
Last edited by Yoshiyahu; 04-11-2012 at 09:41 PM.
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
Glorified TCMAist
wow...just....wow.
ok, two things:
1) when you strike to the head (on the button) the head snaps back, the brain rocks back and hits the wall of the cranium-as it is not attached, per se, but "floats"
as the head is snapping forward, the next punch is already crashing in, and the next..etc this is basic.
(we need a t-shirt: This is your brain, this is your brain on Wing Chun)
2) (sigh...) um, do you guys think that all Wing Chun is, is chain punching?
Chain punches open the door. Follow ups include saat geng sao-throat killing (cutting) palm, biu jee, and elbows, as well as hooks and uppercuts, etc.
not to sound sarcastic, but two pages trying to justify Wing Chun strikes, and all you guys talk about are chain punches? C'mon.
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....step.
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This is a great point...unfortunately alot of WC out there consist primarily of chain punching because its one of fastest methods...An against someone not accustomed to that attack its very effective...that is if you can actually land the attacks.
Some use chain punches to gain entry. I prefer using chain punches when i already struck through the door.
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
humble tofu seller
On the subject of 'chain punching'. I have found, in real fighting and free fighting against other kinds of fighters, that chain punching as in 'the straight blast' does not find appropriate window that often. Like most complex trapping, it has limited use. Chaining attacks together rather than chain punching works much better for me. To some I guess that sounds like there's no real distinction but I think you know what I mean. The chain punch if not timed right can actually put one in a position of being countered or a successfull 'shoot' engaged. It is wishfull thinking that this kind of attack will have the expected result against trained modern fighters.
"Wing Chun is a bell that appears when rung.
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[QUOTE=MrQuickstep;1164947]Lets start...where does wing chun gets it's power from? Again from 95% of the people here says it comes from your shoulder,elbow and maybe wrist, no waist since it will twist your upper body forcing your shoulders and arms not to be square and if they're not square you can't use your arms equally(against the principals of wing chun). If you use chor ma,side body stance or any other name you want to call the position you're shifting your stance but you body is still square to the opponent so there's no real waist or hip rotation. Theres also power generated from the legs but thrusting forward with you strikes hence adding your body weight but that is only useful in bridging the gap, after you've bridge the distance and occupied there space once the person isn't pushed back you can't generate that power again (no waist/hip twist or forward momentum).
Now we're close range how do you end the fight? If not with a knockout you have to break his will to fight....but if his will is strong and he's coming to kill you maybe he has a weapon or friends what do you do? Do you think you can end the fight quickly enough to deal with his friends?
QUOTE]
To go back to the original questions about power generation and how to 'remove a threat' (whether or not they are unconscious is irrelevant - as long as they are not in a position to attack you then consider them neutralised).
Anyway, don't get caught up in TRYING to LOOK like Wing Chun, rather allow Wing Chun to give you options, obey the conceptual aspects of the art. I've added some of the Kuen Kuit below and will discuss some to explain my interpretation.
- The body follows the movement of the hands. The waist and the stance move together.
- Charge into the opponent. Execute three moves together.
- Coordinate the hands and feet. Movement is together.
- Occupy the inner gate to strike deep into the defense.
- The knees lead the stance. The waist links the body. Where the mind goes, the eyes go, and the hands and feet follow.
- Feet and hands work together, and the threat comes to an end.
- In uniting the waist with the stance, power can be generated.
- Circular and straight accompany each other. Bent and straight complement one another.
Nowhere does it say that your shoulders and waist should remain absolutely square on to your opponent at every second of the fight (yes, you should endeavour to keep all of your weapons in roughly equal range by maintaining a 'facing' posture but don't be a square-on robot - this is mainly for drills). What the Kuen Kuit advise is to unite your whole body, much like taijiquan where power comes from the ground in that you push into the earth, transmit through legs (big muscles), coordinate through the waist and shoulders (still quite big muscles) and deliver through the elbow/wrist (small muscles).
The key is to be relaxed and use your whole body (and constantly move - don't stay planted - side step, circle step and thrust step into your opponent's space at all times).
Anyway, power generation - there are two basic ways of power generation/transmission: trans-rotational and trans-lateral (circular and straight). Everything you do should contain both types throughout your body to maximise power. NOT allowing your waist to move when the rest of your body is is actually going against the Kuen Kuit as your waist is not united. The waist and shoulders give trans-rotational energy primarily (the movement is short and sharp as not to over-turn and over-commit), as do small movements in the wrist and legs while the legs (moving) and arms provide trans-lateral, but the shoulders and waist also provide some tran-lateral in the projection into the attack (again, very small, subtle movement but key to good power).
Punching without any movement in your body is not very effective (again, look at the kuen kuit - charge into the opponent and get inside their inside gate at all three levels. Chain punching is just one (iconic) tool; turning punches, straight punches, palms etc are all great for upper gate attacks while low palms and punches etc are good at mid gate attacks while legs obviously attack the lower gates. While chain punches can put an opponent under pressure, I use them to force my opponent into a defensive guard at which point the chain punches become lap/gum/jut or something similar to destroy the guard so a nice throat cutting palm or fak sau can get through.
In terms of knocking someone out, you really don't have to hit someone very hard to achieve this but again - you shouldn't seek to achieve this as you will be hunting for a particular technique and not being 'free'. A broken rib, groin shot or anything attacking the neck (be careful in training with these) are sufficient to put someone down for long enough for you to get away/move onto the next guy.
In the same way as don't become a head-hunter, don't try to apply chin-na/breaks, locks etc - in fact, don't TRY to achieve any particular techniques, simply take advantage of whatever gaps are present and attack whatever target present themselves and when you attack, you attack completely and mercilessly - another of the Kuen Kuit states that to win in an instant is a superior skill.
Hopefully someone will find some of this useful - the key, as I understand it, is to separate drills from applications. Drills are essential ways of developing techniques and tend to be static to allow the student to focus on one particular aspect (it's easier to miss something if you have to coordinate the whole body) but in application you must be anything BUT static, move your whole body and coordinate that movement to generate power/destroy your opponent's structure.
Having said all of this though, you should seek to personalise the system - make it yours and don't try try to fight like someone else. Experiment in chi sau and see what works for you - use pads and bags etc to help develop power and try using your whole body not just the relatively small arm muscles.
I'm sure some will do things differently and the great thing is - they are not wrong (as long as the principles are understood).
To paraphrase Wong Shun Leung 'Don't let Wing Chun be your master, make it your slave'.
Last edited by Matt_WCK; 04-12-2012 at 03:25 AM. Reason: typo
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In fairness the thread is inane as even an untrained person can stop a fight and you are asking a forum of Wing Chun practitioners. Your post above however asks some good questions. In response, if 95% of people here claim Wing Chun power comes in the way you describe then I would say the other 5% are correct! Wing chun power comes from the 6 joints and ultimately the ability to drive off the ground. As far as no waist twist, get someone to show you chum kiu. In SNT the upper and lower body move as one teaching alignment, structure etc in CK upper and lower body moves separately but aligned. With regards to ending a fight, yes a punch on the jaw can do it, but so too can a punch or fak sao to the throat, man gan sau, elbow, or spade palm to the neck etc real Wing Chun is not the endless bunny hopping, egg whisk out of range chain punches that seem to proliferate on youtube.
I don't have my heavy bag hanging at the mo as I'm prefering the maize bag, wall bag and BOB thing but I'll see what I can do re a clip
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Ginger Fist to GV 26 is useful to knock someone out
Ginger Fist, Fak Sau or Gan sau to GV 24.5 is useful to knock someone out.
Points GV 16 & B 10 are great points to hit when your got your opponents back of flank. Sun Fist, Palm Strikes or even Phoenix Eye fist is useful for these two points.
The key is conditioning. Wall Bag training from Rice to beans to sand to steel shots will conditiong your hands to strike these points...
Tan Da accompanied with Chor Ma is useful for point St 6
The key is conditioning. Wall Bag training from Rice to beans to sand to steel shots will conditiong your hands to strike these points...Condition the different hand techniques with the wall bag. Also develop power my shifting when you punch and stepping into the wall bag. Practicing Explosive Push ups and other things will increase your explosive punching power too with in just the arms. Adding the internal aka the entire body behind your punch increases the power. Imagine stepping into an opponent with WC Straight Blast while shifting or splitting the body...Imagine the amount force you will have behind the punch on a persons knock out spot.
Learning how to add snap or jolt at end of your punch is key too. Delivering internal force with Jing will shock the opponents system and make their brain knock against their skull causing a temporary block out!
Last edited by Yoshiyahu; 04-12-2012 at 01:29 PM.
The Flow is relentless like a raging ocean with crashing waves devasting anything in its path.
"Kick Like Thunder, Strike Like Lighting, Fist Hard as Stones."
"Wing Chun flows around overwhelming force and finds openings with its constant flow of forward energy."
"Always Attack, Be Aggressive always Attack first, Be Relentless. Continue with out ceasing. Flow Like Water, Move like the wind, Attack Like Fire. Consume and overwhelm your Adversary until he is No More"
humble tofu seller
Wing Chun's blessing is it's curse, it is too structurally attached to upright boxing to always follow to the end. Chasing and sticking for the trip down is perilous,taxonomy of energy changing..
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