Can Wing Chun end a fight?

[wingchunIan]

No, this is because WCK doesn't address ground fundamentals.

So that you don't have a huge hole in your game when you are on the ground.

This paragraph is extremely delusional. No, you can't fight on the ground the same way you fight flat against a wall (not that WCK people practice fighting flat against a wall either). "Stamp kicks" will not work "brilliantly" on the ground unless you are applying them in a specific fashion combined with other fundamental ground skills.

No, there is absolutely not enough material there to fight on the ground regardless of what your intention is. If you have no ground skills I can hold you on the ground and you can't get up regardless of your intention.

And no, an elbow in the throat will not drop someone wither you're up or on the floor. Here's a typical experiment I've seen play out numerous times. An experienced ground practitioner holds mount. Guy on bottom tries to elbow him in throat and get up. Guy on top punches. Guy on bottom quits within 15 seconds.

No it's not the key. You can't learn WCK by "giving it a go", neither can you learn ground fundamentals and skills.

There is a world of difference between "experienced Jujitsu" guys - meaning japanese jujitsu (black and dan grades) and a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt. Most of your MMA schools train grappling where striking is incorporated, and will roll with you with gloves and punches. They certainly won't "look at WCK as a different beast" if you go in there and show off your noob ground skills while trying to strike them. In fact, spazzing out on them in that fashion will most likely get you hurt. You also wouldn't be able to pull off that garbage against a real BJJ black belt. Go look up "Gracie Challenge" on YouTube for video examples.

The sport fighting vs. bite, spit, claw, etc. is a tired argument. See my above experiement. The problem biting, spitting, clawing, etc. from under mount is gravity - the fact the guy on top can do the same and worse and has skills to hold you down. Also, when you're hand reaches out to claw, your face is unprotected from a punch from above with gravity. Yes, I've seen this experiment play out as well.

The conceptual nature of the system allows for delusional people to think that they have skills in areas they haven't working on developing. This is not only delusional, but very dangerous from a self-defense perspective.

Your POV, based upon your experience of the way that you train Wing Chun. I train my Wing Chun with my back against the wall, sitting down and lying back on the floor. Wing Chun isn't a holy grail that will make you invincible but neither is Gracie jiu jitsu. I've trained with pro mma fighters and tournament winning BJJ black belts and Wing Chun works on the floor if you train it and put the effort into your short range power development both forward and backward (it doesn't win every time and nor does it lose every time). If you stay on the floor you will be overwhelmed eventually and the goal has to be to get up as quickly as possible. It ultimately comes down to who can apply their skills more effectively, you or the other guy. If you never train on the floor then you are immediately disadvantaged and the chances of you coming out on top are remote. How you choose to train your ground game is personal choice but it is only your POV, the world is a big place and Wing Chun training is as wide and varied as the individuals that practice it.

[Vajramusti]

Your POV, based upon your experience of the way that you train Wing Chun. I train my Wing Chun with my back against the wall, sitting down and lying back on the floor. Wing Chun isn't a holy grail that will make you invincible but neither is Gracie jiu jitsu. I've trained with pro mma fighters and tournament winning BJJ black belts and Wing Chun works on the floor if you train it and put the effort into your short range power development both forward and backward (it doesn't win every time and nor does it lose every time). If you stay on the floor you will be overwhelmed eventually and the goal has to be to get up as quickly as possible. It ultimately comes down to who can apply their skills more effectively, you or the other guy. If you never train on the floor then you are immediately disadvantaged and the chances of you coming out on top are remote. How you choose to train your ground game is personal choice but it is only your POV, the world is a big place and Wing Chun training is as wide and varied as the individuals that practice it.

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Agree with much of what you have to say. Can't resolve it ina forum debate.Same old same old POV distinctions on what wing chun
training is and isn't.

joy chaudhuri

[Happy Tiger]

Any one know or have made clips of VT counter fighting ground work or using VT from the guard?

[k gledhill]

Any one know or have made clips of VT counter fighting ground work or using VT from the guard?

http://youtu.be/sEQn5HfyChs here is a guy who made a form , enjoy

[Wayfaring]

Your POV, based upon your experience of the way that you train Wing Chun. I train my Wing Chun with my back against the wall, sitting down and lying back on the floor.

You mean like this guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9h-dYXhXkWQ

Wing Chun isn't a holy grail that will make you invincible but neither is Gracie jiu jitsu.

The Gracies are not invincible themselves. In fact, very few Gracie family people compete in BJJ world tournaments or do MMA fights.

The one thing they did do, though, is dispel deluded viewpoints like the ones on this thread. In the early '90's. Like, you know, the '90's called and they want their argument back.

Here's one example:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pvKRyTSr5Mo

I've trained with pro mma fighters and tournament winning BJJ black belts and Wing Chun works on the floor if you train it and put the effort into your short range power development both forward and backward (it doesn't win every time and nor does it lose every time).

So you have rolled wtih pro mma fighters and tournament winning BJJ black belts and beaten them? Care to share any names or details? Or was this just a hypothetical contest?

If you stay on the floor you will be overwhelmed eventually and the goal has to be to get up as quickly as possible.

Funny, this is also the goal of BJJ black belts who do MMA. Or most of them. And is the goal of above 90% of MMA fighters. Actually I'll correct that to mean stay on the floor on your back. On the floor with the skills and gravity to GNP is also a goal.

It ultimately comes down to who can apply their skills more effectively, you or the other guy.

My bet is on the other guy. You know, the one who studies and has developed ground skills.

If you never train on the floor then you are immediately disadvantaged and the chances of you coming out on top are remote.

Funny - thought that was my point. I would extend my point to say if you train wing chun on the floor like the first guy in the video I posted, the chances of you coming out on top are even more remote.

How you choose to train your ground game is personal choice but it is only your POV, the world is a big place and Wing Chun training is as wide and varied as the individuals that practice it.

While it is true that is my POV, to be fair my POV is based upon empirical evidence that is readily available for evaluation. As far as personal choice, some choices are better than others. I really haven't found that wide of a variety of Wing Chun training among different schools I have visited. Forms, technique, partner drills, and chi sau, maybe wooden dummy techniques - that comprises the majority of WCK training I've seen. Why, does your WCK school vary from that format? What radically better different things do you incorporate?

[Wayfaring]

More WCK ground fighting training gems:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O3AwlS7Vz1M

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VikQ9NrNx8g - Randy Williams is among my biggest pet peeves in this area. Absolute hogwash. Misinformation is actually worse than no information.

[Wayfaring]

But no carpenter would ever claim that the hammer can be used to drive screws.

Apparantly a WCK carpenter would claim that.

[Sean66]

If you don't have time to go to a grappling or BJJ gym, or if there isn't one around where you live, you can always get Tim Cartmell's "Ground Proofing" dvd. It's the essentials of ground fighting for da streetz. You can learn the stuff in a weekend, and if you practice it regularly with a partner/students, you will be waaay better off than having no idea of what to do on the ground.

Here is the trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTb...eature=related

You can also buy the Gracie Combatives dvds. Here is a review:
http://www.slideyfoot.com/2009/08/dv...ves-rener.html

While it is of course better to go to a gym and train, these are excellent resources. Very well presented and easy to learn from.

[MrQuickstep]

@Yoshiyahu -1) i love your response and would like to know more about "...five basic ways we generate power with a hand strike!

1.The Curl (structure and stance)
2. The Breath (chi)
3. The waist and hips (jing)
4. Torque or turning power (chum kiu)
5. Stepping of moving force (chum kiu) "

And how " The waist and hips (jing)" is different from "Torque or turning power (chum kiu)" in generating power?

2)Pressure point striking to me is waaayyy to hard to apply in a streetfight or sparring I rather pressure point graps or jointlocks.

@wingchunIan - I do know the chum kiu form and I understand what you're talking about with generating power from the waist e.g. when you're in a side body stance facing 12 o'clock with a right bong sao then you turn to your left to face 9 o'clock with a right rising/drilling punch...there's a lot of power in that strike but usually in the forms that movement is only used to regain the line and then proceeds with short power strikes (no more hips/waist). Also to me a wall bag/maize bag is used to train short strikes not strikes using 6 joints, how do you train strikes using 6 joints?

@the whole wing chun groundfighting issue - There 3 choices we can make.
1)wing chun is invincible and we will never be taken down in a streetfight cause the art is perfect and I'm just that good!

2)I'll cover up the groundfighting holes in my wing chun with brazilian jiu jitsu/any grapplying style and become unstoppable!

3)I'll try to cover up the groundfighting holes in my wing chun with brazilian jiu jitsu/any grapplying style but modifying it to follow wing chun concepts....I like this one the best but thats just me.

Thanks guys for the input and keep them coming.

[k gledhill]

If you don't have time to go to a grappling or BJJ gym, or if there isn't one around where you live, you can always get Tim Cartmell's "Ground Proofing" dvd. It's the essentials of ground fighting for da streetz. You can learn the stuff in a weekend, and if you practice it regularly with a partner/students, you will be waaay better off than having no idea of what to do on the ground.

Here is the trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTb...eature=related

You can also buy the Gracie Combatives dvds. Here is a review:
http://www.slideyfoot.com/2009/08/dv...ves-rener.html

While it is of course better to go to a gym and train, these are excellent resources. Very well presented and easy to learn from.

Good stuff.

[Happy Tiger]

One thing I'm suprised at is why VT is'nt already integreted into a developed ground fighting scheme. If some one 200 years ago stuck chinese shuai jiao or something on it none of us would even be pontificating now. As a fond and happy grappler, VT is nothing but butter for me. I like going to the floor. I actually desire it, and VT is awsome for putting me where I want to be to do that. VT spends alot of, at least semi lucid time, in a range of combat that in reality usually passes by in an instant. VT, for me, really gives a great 'reference' system and set up style to have a safe trip down and superior position on arrival.The point being, using advanced VT with your goal to go to ground gladly in any position ,a percieved deficit of VT becomes a positve.

[Wayfaring]

If you don't have time to go to a grappling or BJJ gym, or if there isn't one around where you live, you can always get Tim Cartmell's "Ground Proofing" dvd. It's the essentials of ground fighting for da streetz. You can learn the stuff in a weekend, and if you practice it regularly with a partner/students, you will be waaay better off than having no idea of what to do on the ground.

Here is the trailer:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HqNTb...eature=related

You can also buy the Gracie Combatives dvds. Here is a review:
http://www.slideyfoot.com/2009/08/dv...ves-rener.html

While it is of course better to go to a gym and train, these are excellent resources. Very well presented and easy to learn from.

I will second the recommendation of the Gracie Combatives. This is a self-defense oriented curriculum from White Belt to Blue Belt in the Gracie BJJ system. Ground fundamentals learned there apply to street type self defense conditions as opposed to just sport BJJ.

Tim Cartmell is also legit. He's got a pretty traditional martial art background before getting his black belt in BJJ, so many who have similar backgrounds might appreciate the perspective.

Roy Dean is another one like that: http://www.roydeanacademy.com/ - traditional strict Japanese marital art background, then adapting that kind of teaching style to BJJ.

[anerlich]

I'll try to cover up the groundfighting holes in my wing chun with brazilian jiu jitsu/any grapplying style but modifying it to follow wing chun concepts....I like this one the best but thats just me.

"Modifying a grappling style to follow wing chun concepts" is a great way to screw up a good grapping style.

The concepts are not the same. The guys that developed BJJ, wrestling etc. spent decades developing their own concepts. Foolish to throw all that out because you think because you know WC you can "improve" what they did. You can't.

Most WC guys think they can do this in BJJ until they get a bit past blue belt. Then they find "WC concepts" just get in the way.

[anerlich]

"Training with pro MMA fighters and BJJ black belts" isn't that great a stretch. I've done that since about 2006. Any large city will have several gyms like that.

[YouKnowWho]

modifying it to follow wing chun concepts....

Besides the "ground game", you should try to modify SC "leg twist", Judo "hip throw", or wrestling "single leg" to follow WC concept. You may find out that there is nothing that you can possibly modify.