Internal Power

[YouKnowWho]

A: I have "internal power" and you don't.
B: Whether I have "internal power" or not should not be your concern. Can you explain how did you develop your "internal power"?
A: I don't want to make that information available to the public.
B: Can you at least put up a clip to show your "internal power"?
A: Even if I put up a clip, You still won't be able to see it. I can only show you in person.

Do you agree with A's argument?

IMO, if you have "internal power (IP)" in your

- punch, you should be able to put up a clip to show how you will apply your "internal power" on a heavy bag.
- throw, you should be able to put up a clip to show how you will apply your "internal power" on a throwing dummy.

I know this is not an "internal" forum, but if something you are not willing to share, you should not start a thread and talk about it. That kind of attitude bother me big time.

What's your opinion on this?

[IronFist]

Sounds like some "guru" nonsense.

I would want to see quantifiable proof showing that the "internal power" is not something that can be explained away by muscular strength, proper application of body mechanics, parlor tricks, or physics.

For example, if someone is using "internal power" to break the bottom brick, how is that different than using physics to break the bottom brick?

If someone is using "internal power" to withstand blows to the stomach, why are their abs tensed at the moment of impact and how is that any different from taking a blow to the stomach without using "internal power."

So far I have never seen an example of this.

There's even a guy on youtube who breaks the bottom brick with a sledge hammer. If he was a "guru" he could tell people he was projecting his qi through the hammer and into the brick. What a high level of skill!

Every "iron body" demo I've seen that involved sledge hammers to the stomach involved the recipient flexing every muscle in his body at the moment of impact. Usually they're fat, too, which helps absorb the strike. That's physics and proper application of body mechanics, not "internal power."

The correct test for "iron body" is this:

1) the practitioner is blindfolded so he can't tell when the strike is coming and flex

2) the practitioner can do qigong for as long as he likes, and then give a signal when his qi is built up to sufficient levels, and at some point after that the strike will come.

3) the practitioner is not wearing a shirt so observers can help look for visual cues to see if he's flexing his muscles

4) the practitioner's abs are not tightened at the moment of impact because he is absorbing the blow with internal energy rather than tensed muscles

Please note: Because everyone gets butthurt every time this gets brought up, the ability to absorb a sledgehammer blow to the stomach requires a high level of skill. You should be proud of your accomplishments. I'm not saying you're a p.ussy, and I'm not saying you have no skill. I'm just saying, tell it like it is: you're absorbing the blow the same way boxers and everyone else does. There's no mystic internal energy there.

Of course, then the "gurus," backed into a corner with science and logic, will say "but qi is responsible for all of that, so if you're flexing your muscles you're still using qi and internal power."

But let's not be ridiculous. That's not the (mystical kung fu) impression you're trying to give when you tell people you have internal power.

Now excuse me, I'm off to the gym to lift some weights (with my qi, since qi is responsible for muscle movement).

So to answer your question, person A is most likely a charlatan. If not, he should give James Randi a call rather than arguing about it on the internet, because James' $1,000,000 prize would make him a lot more money than he will get ripping off gullible students who want to learn "teh secretz of internal powAr!!!"

[YouKnowWho]

I'm off to the gym to lift some weights ...

I have asked this question before and I have not be able to get any answer from anybody yet.

What's the difference between using "internal" power to lift weight vs. using "external" power to lift weight? For some unknown reason, "internal" guys just don't want to talk about "lift" and I don't know why.

Does anybody have answer for this question?

[xiao yao]

i really think "internal power" is just correct body mechanics, understanding and application of relaxation and tension and use of intent.

[xiao yao]

i spent some time learning a qigong system which was supposed to build up "internal power". we would do standing postures then hit trees and iron palm bags. really, the power to break bricks had little to do with the qigong itself, but from the repetition of striking the bags or trees

some people who had done the qigong for a year or more still couldnt break a brick, yet others can break a brick without even doing qigong

[Dragonzbane76]

Where is TGY when u need him...

[IronFist]

I have asked this question before and I have not be able to get any answer from anybody yet.

What's the difference between using "internal" power to lift weight vs. using "external" power to lift weight? For some unknown reason, "internal" guys just don't want to talk about "lift" and I don't know why.

Does anybody have answer for this question?

You can't use "internal" power to lift weights. You lift weights with muscular strength and proper body mechanics (eg. proper form). Those are "external" things.

There's no qi power involved, unless you want to say that "qi is responsible for all movement" in which case there is no distinction between internal and external in the first place so the entire discussion is moot.

Some internal guys will say biomechanically incorrect stuff like "internal is lifting with your tendons as opposed to lifting with your muscles," but what they don't realize is tendons don't flex and you can't lift anything with your tendons. It's just nonsense left over from the whole "weights are bad" belief common in TMA from the 50s and 60s.

[IronFist]

These discussions always get derailed.

Everyone here knows that when someone talks about "internal" anything, they are talking about qi, mystic power being used in mystic ways to give abilities and skills above those who don't do "internal" training. But the slick-talking snakeoil salesmen "gurus" always derail the conversation into "well qi is all of life, you get qi from food, so when you lift weights, you're using qi" and other nonsense, when everyone except the most gullible of gullibles knows that's NOT what is being discussed.

Then you get the people who "want to believe" so they change the definition of internal so they don't think they've wasted years of training on nothing. "Well, to me, 'internal' training is about having proper body alignment and breath coordination and blah blah blah" all of those things are external and have no qi or mystic internal energy component.

I am not talking about possibly intangible health benefits. If doing standing post qigong makes you feel better, then by all means, keep it up! You can't quantify if you feel better or not to anyone else.

It's just this "I stop punches with my qi" or "I root myself with qi and cannot be pushed over" nonsense that no one can prove because it's all stage tricks and proper application of physics. You're not actually sending your qi through your feet into the earth and creating a root with it like magical glue to hold you in place when someone pushes you.

Just like a fat guy flexing his abs and rounding his back and exhaling when he is struck with a sledgehammer is not protecting himself with qi. He's protecting himself with physics and proper body mechanics, and the same thing can be done by a non "internal" guy who has had the right training.

Much of the mystique and appeal of the TMA, especially TCMA, comes from the internal component. Look at all the demos (stage tricks) and stuff that make noobs and the uninitiated think "wow, that guy has mystic power!" TCMA banks on this kind of stuff! Look how many "develop your qi power" courses there are in MA magazines. People want to learn that stuff, so it's in the interest of the art to perpetuate the myth.

Physical conditioning is real. If you hit your forearms with iron body bags, they will become less sensitive to pain, and the bone will become more dense over time (Wolff's law). But it's not qi. Thai boxers, with their strictly external training, have just as good of shin conditioning as TCMA guys who do iron shin training with the iron body bags and all the qigong components that accompany it. But the fraudsters downplay the role of the external conditioning and instead tell the audience that "he is sending his qi into his shins to protect them" to add to the mystical component, when what is really "protecting" his shins is the years of external conditioning that was slowly increased over time. Of course, the audience wants mystic power, so people give them mystic power.

You guys probably fall for those "magnetic energy bracelets," too, because the guy demoing them showed you that you're harder to pull off balance when you're wearing one. Holy crap it's aligning your qi! Better buy one for each wrist and have unstoppable chi powerz!!!

[YouKnowWho]

Here is somone's term "IP - Internal strength and being known for weird power. Use of jins in an unusual fashion different than a normal grappling feel".

You can't use "internal" power to lift weights.

If that's correct then what can we do with it? Can we use it in

- straight punch?
- roundhouse kick?
- elbow lock?
- hip throw?

When most people talk about "IP", they avoid to talk about how to use it in roundhouse kick and hip throw. I just hate to see that "IP" can only be used to "push" people away.

This subject suppose to belong to the "internal" forum. Since I have discussed this subject in other "internal" form for the past 10 years and still don't get my questions answered. I though may be I'll try in this forum instead. My questions are:

How to use IP on:

- heavy bag?
- throwing dummy?
- weight lift (IronFist just said that I can't)?
- roundhouse kick?
- hip throw?

[Lucas]

ive always viewed 'internal' is just having very good coordination (structure, mechanics, breath, etc) throughout your movements by utilizing the whole body as one single unit. effeciency. i think you can do absolutely anything with 'internal' movement. sometimes when people use the word 'skill' i think it can roughly equates to the same thing.

example:

when you hip throw someone, and you can pull off that 'effortless' throw via proper solid technique, performing the technique effeciently after you've achieved the 'best case scenario' meaning you've disrupted them to where you want them, and the BAM hit that throw hard and quick, with a massive slam that makes you feel good from your head down to your toes. vs. having them in the same position, yet not lifting right, now turning right, etc. so that your throw takes much more engery and effort to finish. to me that is how a throw is done with 'internal'.

however, I, like others here, i dont like to use the term 'internal' because i think there are better ways to describe what is going on, rather than using some vague term that means different things to different people. and yes i think that people in all faucets of physical endeavvors achieve 'internal' from tennis to mma

[IronFist]

If that's correct then what can we do with it?

I don't know. I am still waiting for an "internal" guy to use his internal qi power to do something that cannot be explained by physics, physical conditioning, proper body mechanics or stage tricks.

Can we use it in

- straight punch?
- roundhouse kick?
- elbow lock?
- hip throw?

In order to use internal power for those, they would have to contain some element than a regular straight punch, roundhouse kick, etc. does not contain.

For example, have the internal guy throw a straight punch. Now have him throw a straight punch with internal power. What is the difference? What changed? What quantifiable variable is different between the two straight punches?

How to use IP on:

- heavy bag?
- throwing dummy?
- weight lift (IronFist just said that I can't)?
- roundhouse kick?
- hip throw?

Ask them how using their internal power on those techniques is different from when an external stylist, such as a kickboxer, a muay Thai guy, a western boxer, or a power lifter performs those same techniques.

[YouKnowWho]

You can't use "internal" power to lift weights. You lift weights with muscular strength and proper body mechanics (eg. proper form). Those are "external" things.

There's no qi power involved, unless you want to say that "qi is responsible for all movement" in which case there is no distinction between internal and external in the first place so the entire discussion is moot.

Why qi power cannot be involved in

- vertical weight lifting?

How about

- vertical downwand pulling?
- horizontal pulling?

Can qi power only be used in

- horizontal pushing?

What's the limitation of the qi power (if it does exist)?

[Dragonzbane76]

TGY... The only problem i have is the mystical conotation people attach. But ronin stated it best with cultural attachments. I have a grasp of internal generation but isn't every interpretation different?

[IronFist]

Why qi power cannot be involved in

- vertical weight lifting?

How about

- vertical downwand pulling?
- horizontal pulling?

Can qi power only be used in

- horizontal pushing?

What's the limitation of the qi power (if it does exist)?

To be used in any of those applications it would have to be doing something other than what can be accomplished externally.

How is vertical weight lifting internally any different from vertical weight lifting externally?

That is a question that an internal practitioner would have to answer, and the onus of proof is on them to prove they are doing something other than just external, or that which can be replicated strictly externally.

[lance]

I have asked this question before and I have not be able to get any answer from anybody yet.

What's the difference between using "internal" power to lift weight vs. using "external" power to lift weight? For some unknown reason, "internal" guys just don't want to talk about "lift" and I don't know why.

Does anybody have answer for this question?

YouKnowWho , okay I ' ll answer your questions and share with you my own knowledge with you . But it ' s really up to you to believe me . Hard chi kung is basically the type of chi kung that ' s design for breaking breaks over your own head without getting internal injuries . Or a group of people pushing a spear directly into your own throat as a way of bending it . So you need to learn the hard chi kung excercises and the conditioning method for those kinds of method .

Soft chi kung is the type chi kung excercise where you need to do the excercise in order to get the results . Like weight training , the difference is that soft chi kung as you do it everyday or whenever possible for you . You ' re letting the chi grow in you as you ' re doing the excercise . And as times goes by it should supplement your own physical strenght . If you only lifts weights to get strong , and not continue to do your soft chi kung excercise , then it ' ll depend on your own physical strenght potential . to really make yourself strong .

So YouKnowWho , maybe that ' s why the internal people did ' nt want to share with you , maybe they think that you ' re not patient enough .

For soft chi kung , as times goes by as you ' re practicing the excercises , your body should be getting stronger already , but test it out , by doing pushing and shoving type of excercise against a partner . The day you realize you have more power over your partner , it means that you ' re getting results already . Other than that you need to keep on doing the soft chi kung exercise . Or rather do tai chi . But that ' s the thing with internal power though , the development can take time . But when you noticed the results , you ' ll wan to keep on training at it .

Theres alot of different type of soft chi kung excercises around , so pick the one you like . The samething with hard chi kung .